Kit cars

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by mike the snake

I'd feel safer in this chassis than anything made by OEM manufacturers, as long as I was wearing proper 5 point belts (which ALL cars should have anyways, and would probably save 90% of all car carsh deaths).

This is the GTM chassis. Pretty burly if you ask me.

http://www.factoryfive.com/kits/gtm-...chassiscontent

I can't say anything about the Cobras, I know they are bada$$, but Cobras, MG's, little Austins, all thos little open-top roadsters seem like little death traps to me, especially if you flip them on their heads.

It was proven decades ago that "burley" does not always mean safe. The crumple zones of modern cars dissipate energy that and keep occupants safe. That "burly" chassis may just mean you have a nicer looking wreck with a pulped driver inside. A 5 point harness would not save you from the forces of any type of major impact when all that energy is simply transmitted throughout the vehicles.

[mike the snake]

Well, I watch burly chassis JUST like that one save race car drivers every weekend on TV, usually at much higher speeds than road speeds, and almost every time they walk away.

Haven't had the opportunity to test either type yet luckily.

I won't argue that today's cars are highly developed and safer with crumple tech and airbags, but race car chassis and 5 point belts take on wrecks as hard or harder than most on-road wrecks with the driver hopping out without a scratch.

In the GTM kit car's case, that chassis looks like, combined with 5 point belts, a race car chassis, the same kind that racers run head-on into walls at high speeds and hop out without injury. I'd feel just fine driving in one of those.

[BRZZZZZZZZZZ]

Getting a kit car into Canada built OR building one yourself from new parts in Canada has become very difficult. Make sure you do a lot of research before you decide what to do.

Source: My dad owns a Caterham and I have a friend building a Exocet currently, as well as one who tried to build a Birkin over the last few years.

[53Driver]

Originally Posted by mike the snake

Well, I watch burly chassis JUST like that one save race car drivers every weekend on TV, usually at much higher speeds than road speeds, and almost every time they walk away.

Haven't had the opportunity to test either type yet luckily.

I won't argue that today's cars are highly developed and safer with crumple tech and airbags, but race car chassis and 5 point belts take on wrecks as hard or harder than most on-road wrecks with the driver hopping out without a scratch.

In the GTM kit car's case, that chassis looks like, combined with 5 point belts, a race car chassis, the same kind that racers run head-on into walls at high speeds and hop out without injury. I'd feel just fine driving in one of those.

They're also in fully tubbed cockpits with seats that are designed to restrain the body and head not to mention the helmets, HANS devices and fire resistant clothing. The tracks also tend to be ringed in crash barriers that are designed to give, unlike most obstacles you'd encounter in the real world. Hardly the type of setup someone is going to have when jumping in a vehicle to run down to the local meet and greet. Personally, while some of the kit cars look cool and some even have great performance numbers, I'm not jumping in one to drive around town. It would be interesting to see how the GTM would fair if subjected to crash tests.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by 53Driver

They're also in fully tubbed cockpits with seats that are designed to restrain the body and head not to mention the helmets, HANS devices and fire resistant clothing. The tracks also tend to be ringed in crash barriers that are designed to give, unlike most obstacles you'd encounter in the real world. Hardly the type of setup someone is going to have when jumping in a vehicle to run down to the local meet and greet. Personally, while some of the kit cars look cool and some even have great performance numbers, I'm not jumping in one to drive around town. It would be interesting to see how the GTM would fair if subjected to crash tests.

This^ Almost word for word what I was going to say. I do not want to be in a kit car when an SUV slams into the back of me at 50MPH (Don't want to be in any car really but you get my point).

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

This^ Almost word for word what I was going to say. I do not want to be in a kit car when an SUV slams into the back of me at 50MPH (Don't want to be in any car really but you get my point).

Same here...I came back to respond and found @53Driver beat me to it.


About the only Kitt I would drive on a regular basis...

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by mike the snake

Well, I watch burly chassis JUST like that one save race car drivers every weekend on TV, usually at much higher speeds than road speeds, and almost every time they walk away.

Everyone has already piled on you so I won't, I just want to know what series you're referencing, pretty much all of them have implemented significant crash testing and 'crumple zones' of some sort in their cars.

[mike the snake]

Well, just about every race car these days has extensive roll cage similar to the GTM.
I agree that race car drivers also have other equipment to help them in crashes, like Hans devices, and helmets, BUT, if you had a car with a burly chassis, with 5 point belts, AND airbags (easy enough to install in a road going car) I think you'd have a really safe setup. Safer than the single shoulder belts and airbags we use in today's cars so our clothes don't get ruffled, or take too long to put on.

Airbags would probably negate the need for helmets. I do agree that other things would also need to be implemented, someone strapped into a burly roll caged car would definitely endure more impact forces than today's crumple cars.

I'm no expert, but I watch racing every weekend, and see crashes where the driver should not survive, and they just hop out like nothing happened. ALL these cars have burly rollcage systems, but as pointed out, the drivers are also wearing extra equipment. But a lot of that equipment could be equivalent to airbags and other things in use today without too much extra costs in kit cars.

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Everyone has already piled on you so I won't, I just want to know what series you're referencing, pretty much all of them have implemented significant crash testing and 'crumple zones' of some sort in their cars.

[Ultramaroon]

I'll just add to the controversy by mentioning a paradoxical modern design. The Smart is designed to withstand impact, not absorb it. I don't know how they keep the occupants from being scrambled, though. Seems a bit sketchy to me.

[SkiRideDrive]

I put serious thought into this option prior to purchasing my frs a few months ago. Original plan was to build factory five 818. but after spending over 100 hours reading through build threads, it seemed they relied too much on the end user to develop the kit on their own. Lots of corners cut to keep costs low, etc. In college I was part of FSAE and built a car from the ground up, so I figured why not again. I went forward designing a tube frame car from the ground up to utilize a corvette c5 or c6 drivetrain. I picked up some c5 uprights. I got as far as desigining all the suspension pickup points, designing a chassis around it, etc. Then I realized I really wanted a performance car to drive now and not in two years. There is a good chance I will revisit this plan in the near future, but I figured it would be better suited to a home that I own versus the one I rent currently. So I think a house is on the list before building my track monster. Here are some shots of one of my chassis iterations.

[EAGLE5]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

I'll just add to the controversy by mentioning a paradoxical modern design. The Smart is designed to withstand impact, not absorb it. I don't know how they keep the occupants from being scrambled, though. Seems a bit sketchy to me.

That's not a good understanding. Every modern car is designed to have a cage around the passenger space and crumple zones beyond that. The smart does that, too, but with less crumple zone. In a crash, the engine is designed to gun under the passenger compartment.

[EAGLE5]

A full roll cage and a 5pt belt will keep your body rigidly in your seat. In a severe crash, your head will snap forward and quite possibly break your neck. If you can move around in a crash, you will slam into a part of the roll cage and brain yourself. This is far from safer than a typical modern car with seat belts and airbags, where the car is engineered from the bumper to the seat to keep g-forces under control and have you impact into soft things only. I suggest you watch some crash videos. It's eye-opening. Of course some modern cars are poorly designed. This is why I put my wife in a current Forester. It's a fucking tank.

Of course a full cage with helmet and hans device will work well if properly designed, constructed, and inspected.

So while I think the Pantera is awesome, I do not think it's especially safe.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by mike the snake

Well, just about every race car these days has extensive roll cage similar to the GTM.
I agree that race car drivers also have other equipment to help them in crashes, like Hans devices, and helmets, BUT, if you had a car with a burly chassis, with 5 point belts, AND airbags (easy enough to install in a road going car) I think you'd have a really safe setup. Safer than the single shoulder belts and airbags we use in today's cars so our clothes don't get ruffled, or take too long to put on.

Airbags would probably negate the need for helmets. I do agree that other things would also need to be implemented, someone strapped into a burly roll caged car would definitely endure more impact forces than today's crumple cars.

I'm no expert, but I watch racing every weekend, and see crashes where the driver should not survive, and they just hop out like nothing happened. ALL these cars have burly rollcage systems, but as pointed out, the drivers are also wearing extra equipment. But a lot of that equipment could be equivalent to airbags and other things in use today without too much extra costs in kit cars.

Two points,

1. Those racecars have crumple zones and undergo a decent amount of testing for crashworthiness, here's a couple videos:

F1:
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfnECuWduE8"]Formula 1 monocoque - YouTube[/ame]

Le Mans:
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyjfAOn33YY"]LMP crash box test.wmv - YouTube[/ame]

NASCAR's test rig:
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-J772ggZ9Sc"]Nascar 200mph crash test simulator - YouTube[/ame]

Here's what a "burly" roll cage does for you in a Sprint Car:
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOsoNGwDTcg"]Sprint Car Crash Test into a Wall - YouTube[/ame]



2. Slapping an airbag blindly into a vehicle can kill you, they killed approximately 200 people in the U.S. until they were dialed in appropriately with the last adult death occurring in 2005. They need to be properly engineered and calibrated to the vehicle based on the speeds, the seat, the distance from the occupant to the bag and how the forces are transferred through the chassis to the occupant.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbag...and_fatalities

[mike the snake]

I stand corrected then.

I figured a bulletproof chassis with 5 point belts in just about any car would be safer than what we have today.

Now I see that a burly cage would make for such an unmoving structure in an imoact, that the driver would then take the brunt of the impact (snapped neck) unless the rest of the safety equipment were utilized.

So I'll amend my statement. If all cars today had burly roll cages, and 5 point belts, and proper air bags, and drivers were to wear helmets and HANS devices, then cars would be a lot safer. But we all know that won't ever happen on street cars.

So again, I stand corrected.

Looking at the chassis of those kit cars does make you think you'd be pretty safe in a crash though.