CAR Article: Subaru BRZ (2012) - more on the FT-86's shy sister car

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by chulooz

Yes, I still believe him to an extent, he was so general there is not much concrete evidence to believe yet. But no, I love the collaboration, for years my Toyota and Subaru have lived side-by-side, and I am not a die-hard fan of any brand really.

-Toyota's code name is ft86 (not subaru's)
-Still very limited word from Yamaha (Secrecy is not a bad thing though)
-While the engine is new, horizontally opposed engines are Subaru's stomping grounds I promise there name and engine code will be on it (FA20)
-RWD is NOT specifically a Toyota AE86 trait, and subaru has had concepts and test with RWD.
-Who provides the tranny is nearly irrelevant to platform/drivetrain development, how its made is what is important.

Lets just wait and see. I predict that most parts will be stamped with Subaru's companies, dont forget who is showing you all of the drivetrain components for this model.

And IMHO all of this "re-incarnation of the AE86" is just hype/BS to get attention. This car may share common traits, but taking free rides on the legacy of another car is cheap marketing. And when Subaru says they played an integral role in this cars mechanics, how can Toyota decide that it is the "spiritual successor to the 86"?

I so agree with this. It looks nothing like a AE86(which is a good thing)nor is it as light or based of a sub compact car(Corolla). If anything the closes Toyota it mimics is the Celica and that also came in RWD too.

And Honda did the same thing with the CRZ

[Matador]

Originally Posted by chulooz

Tada is not lying because he is not claiming the opposite of Masuda.

He says they have worked together (which I believe to be true to an extent) while Masuda credits Subaru for platform and drivetrain development, specifically.

Subaru in Toyota's shadow?
When it comes to performance vehicles in the US Toyota has been in one of the darkest corners. Quite a shame to see the biggest auto maker without a single true performance car since the '05 MRS, and before that the Supra in '98.
Subaru has nothing to be insecure about.

As opposed to having the Impreza and ........ SVX as the sum of it's sports car history?

Originally Posted by madfast

to an extent? i guess you're one of those people that believe that subaru developed the whole car while toyota merely styled it, and took all the credit...

lets examine some facts:

-the engine uses D-4S, a toyota system.
-the car is code named FT86 which harks back to the AE86
-the car will use Yamaha tuning, another company that toyota has a stake in, and that is indicative of toyota involvement
-the engine is a "NEW" engine. its not an off the shelf subaru engine. in other words, its based on a subaru engine, probably the FB, but it had to be "improved" for use in this car.
-its RWD, a toyota AE86 trait, not a subaru trait
-manual AND automatic tranny is rumored to be Aisin, another company part owned by toyota. subaru uses JATCO automatics and CVTs, not Aisin automatics

the list goes on. faced with those facts, who can honestly say subaru developed the car themselves? and im talking specifically about the engine/drivetrain. it was a joint effort but imo we all get the feeling it's much more of a toyota project with subaru help, than a subaru project with toyota help.

imo people who fail to see this just arent looking at it objectively...

Originally Posted by chulooz

"platform and drivetrain development, production engineering and final assembly of both cars was handled by Subaru at Subaru facilities."

I wonder how fanboiez feel about this?

Says the Subaru fanboi

[madfast]

Originally Posted by chulooz

Yes, I still believe him to an extent, he was so general there is not much concrete evidence to believe yet. But no, I love the collaboration, for years my Toyota and Subaru have lived side-by-side, and I am not a die-hard fan of any brand really.

-Toyota's code name is ft86 (not subaru's)
-Still very limited word from Yamaha (Secrecy is not a bad thing though)
-While the engine is new, horizontally opposed engines are Subaru's stomping grounds I promise there name and engine code will be on it (FA20)
-RWD is NOT specifically a Toyota AE86 trait, and subaru has had concepts and test with RWD.
-Who provides the tranny is nearly irrelevant to platform/drivetrain development, how its made is what is important.

Lets just wait and see. I predict that most parts will be stamped with Subaru's companies, dont forget who is showing you all of the drivetrain components for this model.

And IMHO all of this "re-incarnation of the AE86" is just hype/BS to get attention. This car may share common traits, but taking free rides on the legacy of another car is cheap marketing. And when Subaru says they played an integral role in this cars mechanics, how can Toyota decide that it is the "spiritual successor to the 86"?

-yes subaru has never actually called it the "FT86", but the fact that toyota unveiled the first concept YEARS ago must mean something...

-the fact that yamaha is even involved means toyota is involved. how much is anyone's guess but it surely isnt 100% subaru.

-yes of course subaru is known for their boxer engines. and this is where i think the "controversy" comes up. subaru proudly sees this as their contribution. but one must wonder how heavy a hand toyota must have had in the development of the engine. D-4S? a toyota system. yamaha involvment? toyota connection. is toyota simply "outsourcing" the drivetrain development to subaru?

-subaru is known for their AWD. IIRC this will only be subaru's second RWD car...

-who provides the tranny is NOT irrelevant. subaru uses CVTs and automatics from jatco. toyota uses Aisin. this car will have an Aisin tranny. now if this was a subaru developed car, why not use the trannies that they have been using? why use a toyota part? unless of course toyota provides the tranny, and subaru simply bolts it up for them in the factory...

the bottomline is this. everywhere you look, the car is bursting with toyota involvement. from the D-4S system to yamaha to Aisin, AND... AND the styling is 100% toyota.

what i get from the interviews is that toyota is the unofficial "leader" of the project. subaru is a partner in name but not exactly equal. exterior design is 100% toyota. drivetrain is subaru based but has a lot of toyota technology/components. how "subaru" is the engine when it contains so much toyota technology? subaru hardly uses gasoline direct injection, AND they are using D-4S. now do you think subaru engineers will work on the engine tuning exclusively while toyota engineers, who actually developed the system, stand idly by?

to me it's looking a lot more like toyota is "outsourcing" some of the development to subaru and calling it a joint venture. subaru is very defensive about this. when the press ask if toyota is the leader they boast proudly of their involvement. toyota doesnt do this. they dont have to. perhaps to them the car speaks for itself...

[KAuss]

Did I miss something or does everyone care a bit too much about how much involvement is in this car by each company?

I can care less if Honda had a hand in it or Suzuki... If the specs are right and drives like a champ, I don't know if it matters at all...

Maybe I'm just missing something?

[Sabastian]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

Says the Subaru fanboi

Pretty much every comment in this thread has sounded like the product of a fanboy from one side or the other.

My opinion? I'm happy that both sides are proud enough of the car to enter into a pissing contest over who gets to take the credit. It sounds like both sides contributed substantially to the project such that the car isn't purely a Toyota, nor is it purely a Subaru.

[KAuss]

Originally Posted by Sabastian

Pretty much every comment in this thread has sounded like the product of a fanboy from one side or the other.

My opinion? I'm happy that both sides are proud enough of the car to enter into a pissing contest over who gets to take the credit. It sounds like both sides contributed substantially to the project such that the car isn't purely a Toyota, nor is it purely a Subaru.

Except me cause I'm a fanboi of both LOL...

My first car was a 91 Camry DX from my dad, then I got myself a 2002 WRX 5 door hatch when I was 21, totaled it in 6 months because that's the car I learned to drive stick in lol... Then got myself a beater 90 Integra LS that my brother in law totaled but not his fault... Got myself a 2005 X-Runner before giving him my Integra...

I really don't think anyone is mad either way, but man both companies are great... When I owned my WRX, it opened me up to the "online communities" with i-club... Really taught me that my vehicle was more than just a vehicle at the time... It was a culture... Then I dropped out of it after totaling the ride and was a bit shook up by the whole accident that I decided to drive something I won't get too attached to...

As it turns out, the Integra was a dang blast and I learned to heel toe in it... That opened up so many doors...

Figured I grew up a little bit, had a choice between a RX-8 or a X-Runner late 2004 and decided I wanted to own a truck for utility but still have enough sport in it to have fun... I am having an absolute BLAST with the truck and even became moderator at customtacos.com... Organized a bunch of meets again and hate to part with the truck ever...

I have grew a bit more now and with a baby here and a 2nd soon on the way, it makes no sense to buy this car, but I'm gonna buy this car for my daily driver, and sell the truck to get a van... This is the only reason why I'm even here, or else I'd save up for a van (which I won't be driving) and keep the truck... OR go back to a WRX 5 door hatch with even more power than it did in 2002...

I swear, either company to me don't matter... The two vehicles I have had the most fun with have been the WRX even though it was short lived (had like $3,000 invested in the audio at the time) and my truck which is IMO the best looking of the lot out the box and surely the most surprising to own... Not to mention the community both of these vehicles were attached to was / is nothing less than stellar...

I came to this board because it has the most activity, but man it would be a dark day to see this forum torn apart by two different factions both wanting the same thing over such a trivial thing as which one of the two great companies had more of a hand in developing this car...

[Spaceywilly]

'If you're interested in motorsports, you should definitely come and see us at the Tokyo motor show' was the grinning engineer's reply…

Hmmm. Wonder what that could mean. Maybe they're just showing the GT300 Legacy... Or maybe they've got a surprise for us

[Dave-ROR]

Who gives a crap if the car turns out to be a blast to drive? I couldn't care what badge was on it or who designed the damn car.

[KAuss]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

Who gives a crap if the car turns out to be a blast to drive? I couldn't care what badge was on it or who designed the damn car.

I'll bet you anything the first few mod photos we see of this new vehicle will be the "debadged" look...

I've been to too many forums of too many first year production cars to not win this bet LOL...

[ydooby]

Originally Posted by madfast

two sides to every coin:

The FT-86 will be built at Fuji Heavy’s Subaru, and when I mention that, the engineer’s pride shifts into low gear – for extra revs. Tada quickly explains that this is just contract production, and it’s the same as “when we make cars at Central Motors or Kanto Auto Works.” Both are separate companies, but they are also part of the greater Toyota empire. Toyota owns a good chunk of Fuji Heavy, so Subaru is part of the family – in a way.

Subaru will produce its own version, probably called the BRZ. Both companies also developed the car together, and that must have been an interesting exercise. Recalls Tada:

“The first year was actually quite tough. The character and processes of the two companies are quite different. In the beginning, we sat down and decided who does what. That didn’t work out very well, because of the cultural differences between the companies. When people started to become more interested in the car itself, people from both sides ended up becoming one team. In the end, it wasn’t so much Toyota doing this and Subaru doing that, but people working together with one goal.”

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...hief-engineer/

Yup, the interview with Tada gives us a very good idea of just how much involvement Toyota has from concept, execution to engineering of every aspect of the FT-86. To say that all the hard work was done by just Subaru alone is laughable.

[blur]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

Who gives a crap if the car turns out to be a blast to drive? I only care what badge was on it or who designed the damn car.

I saw it like this

[Slide]

Originally Posted by KAuss

I'll bet you anything the first few mod photos we see of this new vehicle will be the "debadged" look...

I've been to too many forums of too many first year production cars to not win this bet LOL...

Lol prob be my first mod hahahah.

Clean boot looks best

[MF_DEUCE]

Originally Posted by KAuss

I'll bet you anything the first few mod photos we see of this new vehicle will be the "debadged" look...

I've been to too many forums of too many first year production cars to not win this bet LOL...

NINJA EDIT:
But if the production car comes out like the MKII i think it would take some body work for a "debadge" look to work. I think people would go for the "rebadge" look instead.

ill just point and laugh at people like this:

[old greg]

Originally Posted by madfast

-who provides the tranny is NOT irrelevant. subaru uses CVTs and automatics from jatco. toyota uses Aisin. this car will have an Aisin tranny. now if this was a subaru developed car, why not use the trannies that they have been using? why use a toyota part? unless of course toyota provides the tranny, and subaru simply bolts it up for them in the factory...

I have to say, this one's pretty weak. The transmission in question was also used in the Honda S2000 and the Mazda RX8/MX5. More generally speaking, Aisin (of which Toyota only owns 30%) also has also supplied transmissions to: Alfa Romeo, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Citroen, Fiat, Ford, Holden, Honda, Isuzu, Lancia, Land Rover, Mazda, Mitsubishi, Opel, Peugeot, Pontiac, Porsche, Renault, Saab, Saturn, Suzuki and Volvo. So the fact that this car uses an Aisin tranny doesn't really prove anything either way.


That said, the guy at Subaru claiming the credit is the "deputy general manager of corporate communications". He's a PR guy, and I would bet multiple dollars that the guy doesn't know his ass from his elbow. I'm much more inclined to believe Tada-san's explanation, given that he was the guy in charge of the design team:

Each company tried to design half of a car, but that didn't really work. So the project evolved past X% Toyota + Y% Subaru and became a single team of passionate car guys, working together to make a car with the best DNA of both companies.