Help regarding new 2018 BRZ (price advice)?

[jtice]

Sounds about right for a '18.
I thought about it, but those were not changes I really neeeeeded.
The stock radio in my '17 is CRAP, and yes I wish it had Android Auto, but I will be replacing it eventually anyway, and I am sure it will be better than even what is in the '18
Oddly, they seem like the same deck, wish it would just a firmware update that would give you Android Auto.
The stereo sucks anyway, needs alot of help in all areas.

The headlights in my '17 are AMAZING.
Love the headlights and tailights in these cars!

[Rai-zero]

heck, I was also looking at the Cayman, but the new one was $60-70K (that's was too much) and the 2-3 year old was $40-45K which is fine. But then I figure that the Porsche needs to go to a more specialized service place and that I don't like to drive one hour each way to get my car serviced and repaired.

I really love the Cayman and it's surely better and quicker but the price and convenience of the BRZ is what I like at this time. Plus that I'm keeping my old Legacy and we have 4 other cars past that. The idea that the BRZ is both cheaper and likely more reliable and cheaper to buy tires and repairs that kind of has me thinking to go with the BRZ. I don't really care about the prestige, had the M3 already found the prestige was not worth the extra price especially regarding service.

just trying to decide if I should pull the trigger on the BRZ, because test drives are notoriously limited. First you are trying to just get the feel of things, outward visibility, ergonomics and such and often you can't get the best feel of everything such as backroad performance and acceleration when limited by a co-pilot salesman plus that the cars are new and I don't redline new cars, respect the break-in period.

[StanBo]

Originally Posted by jtice

Sounds about right for a '18.
I thought about it, but those were not changes I really neeeeeded.
The stock radio in my '17 is CRAP, and yes I wish it had Android Auto, but I will be replacing it eventually anyway, and I am sure it will be better than even what is in the '18
Oddly, they seem like the same deck, wish it would just a firmware update that would give you Android Auto.
The stereo sucks anyway, needs alot of help in all areas.

The headlights in my '17 are AMAZING.
Love the headlights and tailights in these cars!

I truly lucked out. I didn't really follow what happened with the 17s because they weren't an option.

I got the 18 because the timing was right.

Android auto is AWESOME. I was going to consider XM radio and I do like the traffic on the tom-tom. But with android auto I can pay for Spotify for my family of four $15 a month and use google maps which has traffic.

Headlights and taillights are also wonderful.

Originally Posted by Rai-zero

heck, I was also looking at the Cayman, but the new one was $60-70K (that's was too much) and the 2-3 year old was $40-45K which is fine. But then I figure that the Porsche needs to go to a more specialized service place and that I don't like to drive one hour each way to get my car serviced and repaired.

I was in the same boat. I have two kids so the double or damn near triple price of a 718 didn't make sense.

A shame you have to travel so far for a Porsche dealer.

Originally Posted by Rai-zero

I really love the Cayman and it's surely better and quicker but the price and convenience of the BRZ is what I like at this time. Plus that I'm keeping my old Legacy and we have 4 other cars past that. The idea that the BRZ is both cheaper and likely more reliable and cheaper to buy tires and repairs that kind of has me thinking to go with the BRZ. I don't really care about the prestige, had the M3 already found the prestige was not worth the extra price especially regarding service.

Agreed 100% the consumables of a brz are way less then the 718. M3s are nice but I wouldn't want to put them in the mix. The only one I wanted other than this was a Porsche.

Originally Posted by Rai-zero

just trying to decide if I should pull the trigger on the BRZ, because test drives are notoriously limited. First you are trying to just get the feel of things, outward visibility, ergonomics and such and often you can't get the best feel of everything such as backroad performance and acceleration when limited by a co-pilot salesman plus that the cars are new and I don't redline new cars, respect the break-in period.

That is weird. In NJ we are able to take test drives without a dealer in the car. The test drive for the BRZ was the first time they asked for the passenger's license as well. She might have driven it too.

I think in the time I have had it I hit redline once by accident. I also take it easy for the break in.

There really isn't any need for raw power with this car. I tend to carry more speed in ala the miata.

Car is a blast on backroads. Haven't taken it up to Bear Mountain yet.

[Rai-zero]

Problem is I’m out of town the dealership won’t hold the car unless it’s under contract (sold) so it’s not as easy as if I’m able to test drive it again. Will have to see next week if it’s still there.

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by Rai-zero

heck, I was also looking at the Cayman, but the new one was $60-70K (that's was too much) and the 2-3 year old was $40-45K which is fine. But then I figure that the Porsche needs to go to a more specialized service place and that I don't like to drive one hour each way to get my car serviced and repaired.

I really love the Cayman and it's surely better and quicker but the price and convenience of the BRZ is what I like at this time. Plus that I'm keeping my old Legacy and we have 4 other cars past that. The idea that the BRZ is both cheaper and likely more reliable and cheaper to buy tires and repairs that kind of has me thinking to go with the BRZ. I don't really care about the prestige, had the M3 already found the prestige was not worth the extra price especially regarding service.

just trying to decide if I should pull the trigger on the BRZ, because test drives are notoriously limited. First you are trying to just get the feel of things, outward visibility, ergonomics and such and often you can't get the best feel of everything such as backroad performance and acceleration when limited by a co-pilot salesman plus that the cars are new and I don't redline new cars, respect the break-in period.

I also looked at the Cayman and test drove a few. I owned Porsches for 27 years, but they were 928's (i.e., front engine/rear wheel drive). Driving the Cayman is a whole different experience. It is a superb car, but you feel less connected to the road even with the superior handling. It was a nice car to drive, but I just didn't have as much fun as the BRZ. That's why I just purchased the BRZ even though I've never owned one before. I spent close to $20k on my last 928 for repairs/maintenance even though I only owned it for 8 years. Changing the steering rack cost $5k alone. Changing the oil was about $400, and that was less than the dealer charged. The Cayman is also a lot quieter. But I've had my share of Mercs, Bimmers, and Porsches over the years, and really don't need them anymore. Instead of choosing the Macan as my compact SUV, I chose the Sportage, and am happy with the purchase. Price is not an issue for me, but in my last few years on earth, I just want to have some fun...

[Xxyion]

IMO i think its a great price. Especially with the PP. My friend managed to get a 2017 PP for 27k before taxes and fees, however this is also right when the 2018's came out so they were cheaper.

I myself got a 2016 for 27k before taxes and fee's. I feel like i paid a bit more than i should have, also considering if i had waited 5 months i could of had a 2017 PP. But i couldnt wait and honestly it doesnt really bother me. The 2016s feel more raw to me and i like that a lot.

Being a fellow previous S2000 owner the car scrathes a similar itch but its not quite the same. I found the S2000 to be incredibly "mature" almost serious when it came to corners. Becuase they are so prone to snap oversteer, exploring the limit of the car was a bit scary in a way.

The BRZ is a lot more of a playful car. More close to the Miata (my girlfriend has a 2017 ND). Exploring the limits of the car is a lot more forgiving.

One thing i like a lot about this car compared to the S2000 however is that driving close to redline is a lot smoother. Because you are in V-Tec after 6k RPM, the S2000 can almost feel like this caged beast that you stop paying attention for just a second and it will eat you alive.


I love both cars and i'll most likley own another S2000 in the future. But you cant go wrong with the BRZ PP. I'd say try to negotiate. If you can knock the price down 2-3k i'd say you are golden.

[Dok Henz]

Hey, Rai-zero:

Figured I'd weigh in, since I've had similar ownership experiences, and I've recently gone through similar purchase considerations that you've described.

1) '17 vs '18: My advice? Do it for the headunit alone. I had a '17 Limited, and while I loved the car, I HATED the headunit. I "upgraded" to an aftermarket solution with CarPlay (Pioneer 4100NEX), but it's utility was compromised by spotty reliability. And it wasn't nearly as pretty as the stock headunit despite purchasing the Canadian BRZ dash piece with which to frame it. The '18 headunit is CarPlay native, and works perfectly. I love having an actual volume knob, too. And while I miss the bass of from my aftermarket subwoofer, I plan to rectify the sound with an OEM+ upgrade in the not-too-distant future.

I can't comment on the difference from a '17 Limited to an '18 Limited with the PP... because I opted for the tS. The ride is quite a bit firmer compared to the '17, but I can already notice a "plantedness" that wasn't there with the non-PP/tS platform... and I prefer my tS already, not even being beyond the 1000-mile break-in.

Get the '18, and definitely do the PP. Or the tS. (Come on, you know you want to!... )

2) M3 (or 718 or 911 or xxx) vs BRZ: I, too, owned an E92 M3. Loved it, daily drove it, tracked it, autoXed it, canyon-runned it. The sound alone (wide open on the long opening straight of Laguna Seca) still makes me pine to see it in my garage (or hear it every morning when I started the ignition). That being said, it had WAY too much power for this novice HPDE driver: 150mph on the Roval at Fontana scared the sh!t out of me, and made me realize that I might very well end my (or its) life by being unable to handle its prodigious envelope. The Twin's envelope is still beyond my capabilities (for now), but at least I'll be probing the limits at less lethal speeds (I hope).

After driving my '17 for a year and half, I can honestly say that, on a daily basis, I'm having 100% of the fun I had with my E92, at 35% the cost. It's more than adequate for daily driving and weekend "backroading." And yes, like you said, while many cars today might be able to "do 170mph," 99% of the drivers out there will have 0% capacity to handle them at their limits. While I might be deluding myself, I definitely feel like I can handle its - and my - limits when driven to 8 or 9 tenths. Like Xxyion said:

Originally Posted by Xxyion

Exploring the limits of the car is a lot more forgiving.

And you, yourself, said this in another thread:

Originally Posted by Rai-zero

Plus to me having to work harder for the speed rev it up is half the fun.

Nailed it.

Like you, I also considered a P-car (both the 718 and 991) and couldn't justify the increased expense. I loved driving the 718 (and haven't ruled out owning one eventually), but I couldn't sacrifice the "+2" of the BRZ, and it's ability to haul my 10 year-old's hockey bag. And the 991 was just stupendously expensive when I optioned it the way I'd want.

And this is totally true:

Originally Posted by Rai-zero

I don't really care about the prestige, had the M3 already found the prestige was not worth the extra price especially regarding service.

Besides, in my neighborhood, every other schmuck who isn't driving a Tesla is driving a Porsche. I'm proud to drive the only BRZ in a 5-mile radius.

3) Regarding your original questions: Headlights are great, both in the '17 and '18. Autodimming works well... as does Homelink: I can't imagine ever opening my garage door with an ancient standalone opener again. Bumper applique, trunk liner, wheel locks? Can't imagine you'd be able to find a Limited without those things. And I'll repeat what Stang70 said, because it's totally on the money:

Originally Posted by Stang70Fastback

If by "cargo tray" you mean the rubber cargo liner with the lip, it is ABSOLUTELY worth it, because it will not only contain any minor spills, but it's made out of a really grippy rubber that does a great job of keeping things from sliding around, unlike the factory carpeting, which is, like, made with teflon fibers.

4) Pricing: Again, Stang70 said it best:

Originally Posted by Stang70Fastback

People will argue all day long about what a good price is, and they will insist that you haggle them, and negotiate, and play them off of other dealerships, etc... which is fine. But honestly, if you are happy with the deal you are getting, that's much more important than whether or not someone else 6 states away got the same car for $500 less. It isn't going to make any meaningful difference in your monthly payments. When they said yes to my initial offer, I could have sat them down and spent 4 hours negotiating an even lower price, pretending to walk out, etc... Did I do any of that? No. Why? Because I was happy with the price I offered, and I wasn't about to waste my day, and stress myself out, and the salesman out, just to try to shave a few extra hundred bucks off of the price of the car. I walked in, we signed stuff, and I walked out. Quick and easy, and much less stressful for everyone involved.

If you're satisfied with the price, don't worry about $500. Hell, if you were seriously considering a 718 - even a used one - you've already saved yourself at least $20,000 by considering a Twin. And you'll be having just as much fun.

In summary, I'd recommend the '18 without reservations. Having made the jump to the Twin platform myself almost 2 years ago, I have zero regrets. In fact, I opted to purchase my tS after leasing my '17, knowing it'll be in my stable for many years to come.* The '18 will serve you well.

Peace!
Dok

* Why I chose the tS over the Limited PP is another story. Happy to relay it for those interested.

[Rai-zero]

thanks

At the time that I was buying my M3 which was 11 years ago (I think), I was exploring other cars such as GTi and Civic Si which I didn't get because wanted the RWD, and power experience. I was just out of the S2000 at the time and wanted something bigger.

Looking back should have got the Civic Si because I like the smaller but high revving engine and the running costs would have been much better. I lost too much on the M3. I don't feel sorry that I owned it, but the money could (should have) been used differently should have kept the S2000 and bought a Si or GTi. But I didn't have room for an extra car at the time. I think the S2000 would have been fine for weekend (not DD like I had been doing).

Regarding the Porsche Cayman, I drove the 917 but was shopping for the prior generation 2014-16 $39-45K I didn't really want to deal with the running cost plus who knows if the car that I buy which might have had two prior owners if it may have issues. Some were private party sales and what kind of recourse do I have? It's usually sold 'As Is' or the dealership experience they have a higher price.

I really like to a *new* car like 10 miles on the odo, sure that cost me dearly with the M3 but the BRZ is starting so much lower that it's less money to lose period.

Finally, I always liked little cars such as first gen MR2, the 240SX, S2000 Civic Si non turbo and feel like the BRZ while it may compete on paper (price) with a Mustang it's more like if Toyota had kept making RWD small car like the Corolla 86. Today's cars like the Civic bigger than the old Accord used to be, the Civic Si now weighs 3200 pounds. I know it's got 300hp but along the way it lost something when it put on a thousand pounds of weight.

[Rai-zero]

Originally Posted by Dok Henz

Hey, Rai-zero:

* Why I chose the tS over the Limited PP is another story. Happy to relay it for those interested.

I'm interested.

I *would* get a tS because it's the best version of this car. But really dislike the rear wing so much that I would look into a wing swap, not sure what that involves. Does the rear wing make it hard to see out of the rear window?

If they offered the car with the standard wing, I would more likely buy it.

Besides the wing there is also the higher cost, not sure if I want to pay more than $30K when the idea for me was to get a relatively cheap fun car.

Can you give me an idea how the better tires work, how do you compare it to the Limited with PP.

Besides the wing, tires/wheels what else does the tS have (I guess it's tuned better handling how is that?)

[Xxyion]

Originally Posted by Rai-zero

I'm interested.

I *would* get a tS because it's the best version of this car. But really dislike the rear wing so much that I would look into a wing swap, not sure what that involves. Does the rear wing make it hard to see out of the rear window?

If they offered the car with the standard wing, I would more likely buy it.

Besides the wing there is also the higher cost, not sure if I want to pay more than $30K when the idea for me was to get a relatively cheap fun car.

Can you give me an idea how the better tires work, how do you compare it to the Limited with PP.

Besides the wing, tires/wheels what else does the tS have (I guess it's tuned better handling how is that?)

TBH the Ts is just a slightly more track ready PP. The PP is just a limited model with brembos and STi wheels (to clear the brakes). The tS on the other hand has the suspension slightly stiffer in some areas, the wing helps with downforce for better cornering, the aero kit allows for better air flow. Honestly though, if you arent a fan of the wing you could always buy a PP and just purchase the STi lip kit after the fact. You might save yourself a few thousand in the process.

The tS is mainly for people who are going to be tracking the car heavily. Its the most track ready version of the car you can buy from the factory. If you are going to be mainly DDing this car or just using it as a weekend car and not really taking it to the track, then a PP might be better for you.

[PhyrraM]

The auto dimming mirror works fine. I've never had an issue. Works just as well as the one in a Land Rover.

The HID headlights on the 2017+ are great. If anything there is not much difference between low and high beams, but I have never gotten flashed or wanted for more. One thing not yet mentioned is that the 2017+ are auto leveling with a sensor on the rear suspension. This makes me think that lowered cars will "auto" aim their lights too low and throw distance on low beams would suffer.

I hate the 2017 head unit. I'm either going to get the widescreen Kenwood or a cast-off 2018 unit eventually.

I chose the PP and I'm not looking back. I hate the wing and don't really like the red trim and the aero package on the tS. Grippier tires are just 25K miles away. That leaves only the difference in suspension tuning...and I'd bet that the difference between the tS and the Sachs is minor if on the same rubber.

I did however add a Harrop supercharger and OEM Audio+ system. For less than $40K I'm completely happy and right there with a Cayman (w/ a low rent in interior).

[Dok Henz]

Hey Rai:

Originally Posted by Rai-zero

But really dislike the rear wing so much that I would look into a wing swap, not sure what that involves.

I initially disliked it, too, particularly since I'm nearly 50 and the thought of stepping out of a car with so much aero and that huge park bench on the trunk made me a little uncomfortable. However, I plan to track it, and I trust that the STI engineers know just a little bit more about aerodynamic tuning than me... so instead of me adding a bunch of aftermarket (or even OEM) stuff to it later, and personally trying to tweak things, I figured I'd get one already set up by the pros.

Originally Posted by Rai-zero

If they offered the car with the standard wing, I would more likely buy it.

I thought the same thing. As far as a wing swap - Because I was so turned off by the wing before I saw it in person, I considered a number of options as well: removing it and plugging the holes with rubber pledgets for reinstallation for HPDE events; buying another trunk lid with the standard wing and swapping out the trunks for track days; doing a trunk swap with another BRZ owner. I don't think I'd recommend drilling hole for the standard spoiler and swapping the two out, but that's another option.

However, after having seen it in person, and driven it for a couple hundred miles, my plans to somehow rid the trunk of the wing have faded. The overall look is growing on me.

Originally Posted by Rai-zero

Does the rear wing make it hard to see out of the rear window?

No. Sure, it takes a little getting used to, but after ~100 miles, it's like the thing has disappeared from my vision. The magic of our brain's visual processing.

Originally Posted by Rai-zero

Can you give me an idea how the better tires work, how do you compare it to the Limited with PP.

The tires are much stickier. So much so that others have complained that they rob the driver of the fun of the PP being a bit tail happy, with its standard "Prius" tires. Personally, I prefer the kartlike precision of the tS set up, and don't miss the occasional oversteer during power-on turns, and that seems to be the main difference with the tS wheel/tire set up. What I am happy about is the Pilot SS4's improved wet road performance; I don't have to worry as much about the rear end getting away from me during turns in the rain.

Originally Posted by Rai-zero

Besides the wing, tires/wheels what else does the tS have (I guess it's tuned better handling how is that?)

There are a number of additions, including the aero package and wing, 18" wheels with wider and stickier rubber, better brakes (but also on the PP), different front V-braces, STI springs, Sachs dampers (also on the PP), and flexible draw stiffeners. I've heard they've retuned the suspension to make it ~5-10% stiffer for less body roll compare to the Limited, and my gut (and butt) tell me this is true. The ride is a bit stiffer than my Limited (but still comfortable in daily driving), but I think the already amazing steering has been dialed up a notch: it's incredibly precise.

I haven't done the math to see how much it would cost to have all the tS extras installed on a PP, but I suspect it would be much more than the difference in MSRP. Plus, this way, you get the expertise of the STI engineers in tuning it from the factory.

Additionally, I prefer the tS interior to the Limited. Yeah, the red seats are flashy, and the red seatbelts are nifty (and Porsche would charge you ~$1000 to do that), but all the "metal-finished" plastic dash pieces are black rather than silver, which looks better overall. I suppose you could swap those out on a Limited though... or you might not care. Perhaps I'm justifying the extra $4000 I spent...

But like Xxyion says:

Originally Posted by Xxyion

The tS is mainly for people who are going to be tracking the car heavily. Its the most track ready version of the car you can buy from the factory. If you are going to be mainly DDing this car or just using it as a weekend car and not really taking it to the track, then a PP might be better for you.

I think he might be right, given what you hope to do with the car. I suspect you'd get just as much fun from the PP as the tS, and the standard tires would allow you the tail-happiness that some drivers pine for. And if you don't like that sorta thing, a simple upgrade to stickier rubber is an easy and inexpensive upgrade.

My only caveat, don't discount the tS until you see it in person. That made a huge difference for me... the wing is growing on me.

Hope that helps, and doesn't add more confusion to your decision. Peace, and good luck!

Dok

[Veloist]

I can actually notice the differences in the tS. It's a razor sharp car in the city when you're turning at intersections or off a freeway ramp. I don't have much experience with the PP but I think the differences come down to 18-inch wheels, grippier tires, and the chassis stiffening.

The tS will hold its value too but it will also hold its value at the dealership if you know what I mean. And if you decide to swap the wing, I don't imagine that will be hard. You might end up with a couple hundred bucks too. That wing is like $4k but if you offer it for a swap plus $1k I bet someone would do it.

[Rai-zero]

Originally Posted by Veloist

I can actually notice the differences in the tS. It's a razor sharp car in the city when you're turning at intersections or off a freeway ramp. I don't have much experience with the PP but I think the differences come down to 18-inch wheels, grippier tires, and the chassis stiffening.

The tS will hold its value too but it will also hold its value at the dealership if you know what I mean. And if you decide to swap the wing, I don't imagine that will be hard. You might end up with a couple hundred bucks too. That wing is like $4k but if you offer it for a swap plus $1k I bet someone would do it.

Thanks

I'm now looking at both PP or tS

I don't think that I'd do a trunk swap or whatever because that would not do well in resale. Plus the hassle, so I'd probably keep the wing if I decide to go with the tS.

I will say that I prefer strong planted feel to loose feel like skidding coming out of a stop while turning right (for example).

Any thoughts would help me decide, is the rear wing bad or good? Especially rear window blockage?

If I get the PP likely would get new rubber so the price difference is not as great looking at that way. Plus maybe I would like the better reinforcements and suspension of the tS?