prospective buyer of new BRZ

[Rai-zero]

I former owner of a AP1 S2000 (sold because I wanted a bigger, faster car) got a e90 M3 as my next car, was great (except for the cost twice as much as the S2000). I loved the 6MT from the S2000 but got a DCT with the M3 which was also great.

In the end loved both but are sold and miss both, but the S2000 was more fun (to me). However sold S2000 because it was too small for me (interior). Loved the power of the M3 (400hp V8) but found that it was almost too fast to use much of the power without getting into trouble. In the end, probably would dive both cars equally fast A-B was the same but the M3 had the edge in acceleration but fun was edge to the S2000.

I currently have a car that I can drive in all weather so I'm looking keep that and to buy a car second that doesn't need to be used for long trips or inclement weather. Will be a weekend car and more sunny day daily driver.

I test drove the BRZ found it to be nice and roomy and like the toss-able lightweight as well as the hard top and small rear seats, it's big enough but not too big.

I didn't want to go into Mustang, Corvette or other big power cars and was really looking at the BRZ, plus like that it almost seems like an older car (like a throwback) because it's so low power in this time where so many other cars are turbo or big size the BRZ while small to me seems right size.

I was digging into old issues of car magazines to see where the BRZ ranks, and while yes today it may appear slow.

I was saying BRZ is a throwback because when I look at cars under 3000 lbs it brings me back to the 80's or so when I grew up GTI's weren't as big as today and while I don't want to buy an old car, I like the idea of a throwback car that is light but has more modern safety and technology than was available back in the day.

Here is some data (all from Car and Driver magazine for consistency).

S2000 (2003)
$34K
weight 2840 lbs
C/D TEST RESULTS:
Zero to 60 mph: 5.4 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 15.0 sec
Street start, 5-60 mph: 6.9 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 14.1 sec @97mph
Top speed (drag limited): 149 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 166 ft

BRZ (2017)
$28K
weight 2777 lbs
C/D TEST RESULTS:
Zero to 60 mph: 6.2 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 16.3 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 7.2 sec
Top gear, 30-50 mph: 10.6 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 8.6 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 14.8 sec @ 95 mph
Top speed (drag limited): 134 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 164 ft

1988 M3
$34K
weight 2857 lbs
0-60 6.9 sec
1/4 mile 15.2 sec @ 92 mph
Braking 70-0 179 ft

Realize that the BRZ is the *lightest* of the three and the *cheapest* not even accounting for inflation. BRZ is also clearly the least quick, but is still somewhat respectable as long as you rev it up, but can be driven respectably is you want.

I realize the BRZ is not the quickest or the most luxurious or the cheapest car today that people consider buying a GTI, Mustang/Camaro for similar money. But to me the BRZ looks quite tempting and stats wise is by no means would I say it's slow. Plus to me having to work harder for the speed rev it up is half the fun.

[NCtoBRZ]

Originally Posted by Rai-zero

I former owner of a AP1 S2000 (sold because I wanted a bigger, faster car) got a e90 M3 as my next car, was great (except for the cost twice as much as the S2000). I loved the 6MT from the S2000 but got a DCT with the M3 which was also great.

In the end loved both but are sold and miss both, but the S2000 was more fun (to me). However sold S2000 because it was too small for me (interior). Loved the power of the M3 (400hp V8) but found that it was almost too fast to use much of the power without getting into trouble. In the end, probably would dive both cars equally fast A-B was the same but the M3 had the edge in acceleration but fun was edge to the S2000.

I currently have a car that I can drive in all weather so I'm looking keep that and to buy a car second that doesn't need to be used for long trips or inclement weather. Will be a weekend car and more sunny day daily driver.

I test drove the BRZ found it to be nice and roomy and like the toss-able lightweight as well as the hard top and small rear seats, it's big enough but not too big.

I didn't want to go into Mustang, Corvette or other big power cars and was really looking at the BRZ, plus like that it almost seems like an older car (like a throwback) because it's so low power in this time where so many other cars are turbo or big size the BRZ while small to me seems right size.

I was digging into old issues of car magazines to see where the BRZ ranks, and while yes today it may appear slow.

I was saying BRZ is a throwback because when I look at cars under 3000 lbs it brings me back to the 80's or so when I grew up GTI's weren't as big as today and while I don't want to buy an old car, I like the idea of a throwback car that is light but has more modern safety and technology than was available back in the day.

Here is some data (all from Car and Driver magazine for consistency).

S2000 (2003)
$34K
weight 2840 lbs
C/D TEST RESULTS:
Zero to 60 mph: 5.4 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 15.0 sec
Street start, 5-60 mph: 6.9 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 14.1 sec @97mph
Top speed (drag limited): 149 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 166 ft

BRZ (2007)
$28K
weight 2777 lbs
C/D TEST RESULTS:
Zero to 60 mph: 6.2 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 16.3 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 7.2 sec
Top gear, 30-50 mph: 10.6 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 8.6 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 14.8 sec @ 95 mph
Top speed (drag limited): 134 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 164 ft

1988 M3
$34K
weight 2857 lbs
0-60 6.9 sec
1/4 mile 15.2 sec @ 92 mph
Braking 70-0 179 ft

Realize that the BRZ is the *lightest* of the three and the *cheapest* not even accounting for inflation. BRZ is also clearly the least quick, but is still somewhat respectable as long as you rev it up, but can be driven respectably is you want.

I realize the BRZ is not the quickest or the most luxurious or the cheapest car today that people consider buying a GTI, Mustang/Camaro for similar money. But to me the BRZ looks quite tempting and stats wise is by no means would I say it's slow. Plus to me having to work harder for the speed rev it up is half the fun.

You’re preaching to the choir on this forum, many of us have owned cars that are faster in a straight line than the BRZ... but few cars are more fun to drive for anywhere near the same price. I also previously owned an S2000 and I miss that car greatly (I wish I had it to drive on those perfect top-down days).
The stats that you posted are a bit strange... there is no such thing as a 2007 BRZ and you mentioned your 400hp V8 M3 but then post stats for a 1988 4 cylinder M3 with 192hp?

[GrantedTaken]

Your throwback mindset in on the right track in understanding why BRZ is one of the best cars produced in the last 30 years.

Stop looking at 0-60 times. Those people have no clue what this car is about.

In the curves, the BRZ is probably the fastest production car on the market today.
The only thing better is a Lotus Elise

There is no escaping physics in terms of how fast this car can corner.
Momentum = mass • velocity

No other moderm production car can take turns at the speed of a BRZ that weighs 2700 lbs.
Bigger cars will fly into a ditch trying to keep up with a BRZ in the corners.

The BRZ is very very fast, if you know how to drive a momentum car.
The only performance upgrade you need are summer tires.

[Rai-zero]

Originally Posted by NCtoBRZ

You’re preaching to the choir on this forum, many of us have owned cars that are faster in a straight line than the BRZ... but few cars are more fun to drive for anywhere near the same price. I also previously owned an S2000 and I miss that car greatly (I wish I had it to drive on those perfect top-down days).
The stats that you posted are a bit strange... there is no such thing as a 2007 BRZ and you mentioned your 400hp V8 M3 but then post stats for a 1988 4 cylinder M3 with 192hp?

sorry was supposed to be a 2017 BRZ, that was a typo, I corrected my original post, thanks for the good catch.

I posted that I owned the V8 M3 which is 414hp but that's more of a Mustang (size/weight car). I wanted to post the the figures of the earliest M3 which was quite a trick 30 years ago and is thought of as a great performance car (when looked at the time it came out). But that's just why I posted that car 2800 lbs weight with a 4 cylinder high revving engine. If a BRZ was released 30 years ago it would have been quite a marvel. Plus a 1988 M3 costing $34K would be similar to $70K in todays money BRZ seems quite a bargain.

The truth would be the BRZ compares well to the early M3 power and weight but the latest M3s with double the power and 700 lbs more weight have grown in every dimension.

[Rai-zero]

Originally Posted by GrantedTaken

Your throwback mindset in on the right track in understanding why this is one of the best cars produced in the last 30 years.

Stop looking at 0-60 times. Those people have no clue what this car is about.

In the curves, the BRZ is probably the fastest production car on the market today.
The only thing better is a Lotus Elise

No other moderm production car can take turns at the speed of a BRZ that weighs 2700 lbs.
They will fly into a ditch.

There is no escaping physics in terms of how fast this car can corner.
Momentum = mass • velocity

The BRZ is very very fast, if you know how to drive a momentum car.
The only performance upgrade you need are summer tires.

This is a good point, was looking at the Challengers specs they can weigh up to 4400 lbs that's a full size minivan or 3-row AWD SUV. It's probably a lot easier to make 500hp engine than it is to make a 2800 lb car that does well on crash tests and whatnot. It's not like 30 years ago, now BRZ needs 7 airbags and whatnot crash standards are much tighter than 20-30 years ago when early M3 or S2000 were made.

I still marvel at the MX5 which is so much less weight than the BRZ but when I drove both the other day, it was also evident that the MX5 was like me trying to wear size 10 shoes (when I wear size 12). I did fit into the MX5 but it's so obviously smaller inside that they're almost not comparable.

[GrantedTaken]

While much lighter, the classic Miata has a softer suspension and only 140hp.
The newer ones have 150hp.

But, as you said, they are just different cars, so it may not be about numbers.

[Adam_L]

enough with the talk .... and go buy one.... just in time for spring/summer!

[Coachrhino11]

Originally Posted by GrantedTaken

While much lighter, the classic Miata has a softer suspension and only 140hp.
The newer ones have 150hp.

But, as you said, they are just different cars, so it may not be about numbers.

New Miata has 155 hp, but ‘19 is coming out this summer with 181 according to some reliable sources. That’s nice considering weight. Definitely small, but super fun!

[Ernest72]

This car lacks torque at the low end 2500-4000 rpm range - the range most of us are used to driving. At higher rpm this car moves. At stage 2 with header its much better but still lacking to many other cars out there. So if you need that torque get a different car. This car is about feel and it feels great, especially in the turns.

For example, my 04 WRX stock would push in the turns. It took a lot of suspension mods to get it to be a neutral car where the back end comes around nicely on a quick turn.

The BRZ is way better stock and feels better in the turns and of course the steering feel is better. Having the ass hang out like it does in a turn is a lot of fun.

If you were to do some magazine number check I believe my WRX beats my BRZ in the turns, mostly because AWD just pulls you out of that turn. But as far as feel and fun factor - the BRZ would win.

[cjd]

Remember that the 0-60, etc are hurt by an extra shift. You can't get there in 2nd,especially in the 17 with the shorter rear ratio.

If you want this kind of car new, its the classic miata vs. discussion.

If you're willing to mod, obviously some detractors go away... Like the power delivery with just a header and tune. I wish I felt like taking the time to try stock PP suspension with adequate front camber. I like it... But parts from the old car are already half transferred.

Drive it. If you like it, its a good match. Nothing more matters.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Coachrhino11

New Miata has 155 hp, but ‘19 is coming out this summer with 181 according to some reliable sources. That’s nice considering weight. Definitely small, but super fun!

Please cite these "reliable sources".
All I have seen is a car magazine site referencing a car magazine site that claims to have found "documents".

[Rai-zero]

I test drove the 2017 with PP yesterday. Was adequate in power, that doesn't bother me. Even driving around in the 2000-4000 rev range was fine. It's not like this car needs to be 4000+ revs to be moving. I'd say 90% of the time we are driving we are constrained by other people in front of us. I love the way the BRZ feels but I don't fit as comfortably as I'd like. But that may not be a deal breaker because the BRZ is still a great value.

Anyway just to see what's what. I was going to drive a Mustang, but where I was driving the BRZ was just 5 minutes from a Porsche dealer so I dropped in there instead.

So went to look at a more direct coupe competitor in size (not price) the base Cayman (non S). I'm just going by the Porsche website for the weight. But this was a PDK transmission.

Weight 3010 (lbs) but heavier with optional equipment so it's let's call it 200-300 lbs heavier than the BRZ (6MT).

The Cayman is six inches longer (negligible difference) has a 4 inch shorter wheelbase around the same height and width as the BRZ. Cayman had more than double the trunk space but no rear seats so depending on how you look at it it's more or less practical. I'd say BRZ is more room for stuff but the Cayman has more locked space, meaning not in the open like if you had stuff in your back seat area. They both fit me ok for driving position, but the Cayman had more adjustable seats so was able to fit just a speck more comfortably.

Cayman power 2.0L flat 4 turbo:
300hp @6500 rpm
280 TQ @1950-4500 rpm

BRZ
205hp @7000 rpm
156 TQ @6400 rpm

also note the Cayman has better (summer tires) and larger
BRZ 214/45/18 (f/r)
Cayman 235/45/18 (f) 265/45/18 (r)

The grip at the street is much better for the Cayman. No doubt it has more weight on the rear end but also the tires are clearly better and larger.

[Rai-zero]

Anyone will say that's not any kind of comparison because the Cayman (list) was $60K and the BRZ was 30K. They'd say look at a $30K Cayman which can find $30K Cayman that are from 2011 so not too old but still that's a 7 year old car to a new car. Also to be fair you can find BRZ (used) for $15K so there's really always a 2x price difference looking at comparable cars (used or new). And it shows in that the Porsche is a much nicer car (I am talking build quality and materials).

My salesman told me that 70-80% of Porsche Cayman/911 are sold with the PDK and that MT are usually not preferred because a lot of people use them as DD cars so they like to have the PDK.

The PDK (mush like my DCT from my M3) does make the car faster, but IMO it's less involving. I know you can use the paddles but 99% of the time (at least I did) just leave it in auto. So you miss out on the real need to pay attention. You don't have to think what gear you are in, what gear you should be in, or plan what gear next or when to change. The PDK does it all and better than you can with a MT. But the 6MT is more fun. I can say without a doubt the PDK is faster but the 6MT is more fun. I didn't test the 6MT Cayman but I am sure this will be the way I'd feel.

So the Cayman while being the least powerful Porsche, just feels fast. I can't say it's as fast or feels as nice of an engine as I had in my V8 M3. But just every speed and every engine RPM seems like it has all the power you want.

No doubt in my mind the Cayman is much quicker in every road speed and every situation and every road or racecourse. It would be like Usain Bolt (Cayman) against a very good track runner (BRZ). I'm not saying the BRZ is a dog, but it's not touching the Cayman (in performance).

Same with the comfort and all around most features the Cayman is better.

But the cost is so much more, you can get a Cayman in the $90K's with options not kidding. So it's just a much different class, I know that, we all agree.

MI still love is the BRZ, not because it's better in any way except one big way, that's the cost. I could buy (two cars) a BRZ and a new Outback for the cost of one Cayman.

I am looking for a car that is very fun and affordable so I could keep my used Legacy for half time and drive the BRZ the other half.

I can afford a Cayman, may still do, I just need to drive them both some more, but for the cost I am leaning towards the BRZ.

I just wanted to drive the Cayman (and will likely drive a Mustang) so I could make an informed decision. I am not saying they are the same league but will say the Cayman v BRS are in the same league on size/weight.

[JeremyR]

With some bolt-on power mods and e85 you can easily surpass those 0-60 and quarter mile times of the s2k, if that's a big selling point for you.

The brz was made to be a drivers car that handles extremely well. Not to say the s2k doesn't, but being a convertible puts it at a disadvantage in this category, handling and safety wise.