Spark Plug Options?

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by qqzj

If there isn't a good reason for it, it is pretty much a ripoff.

Here's what others have dug up.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8267

tl;dr due to the high compression direct injection nature of the FA20 it requires a specific uncommon plug design to operate well.

NGK has some good info on why different plugs matter and the tl;dr there is that different combustion environments need a different kind of spark to operate at the way it was intended to.
https://www.ngksparkplugs.com/about-...rk-plug-basics

Some conclusions you can draw from that: spark plugs are cheap because of economies of scale, there are literally hundreds of millions of spark plugs manufactured every year and I'd bet most of them fall into a few categories. When you make tens of millions of widgets per year you can get production costs very low, but for the FA20/BRZ/FRS/86 they're only making maybe a few hundred thousand per year.

Take the spark plug in a Toyota Camry, instead of making 50 million of those every year you only make 5 million. It doesn't cost any less to setup the factory and maintain the machinery but you are all of a sudden selling 1/10th of before, therefore prices must go up nearly 10-fold to maintain profitability.

And that's how what "should be a $2 spark plug" is now a "$20 spark plug"

(except now rare metals increase base cost but don't necessarily translate into lost profit margin based on economies of scale so we're comparing a $20 plug to a $8 plug)

Why do I think this is true at all? Because if there was any other engine using this spark plug it would have been known years ago and yet every parts website lists it as the only option for this car and nobody else uses it. If you can find something that does then I'll re-evaluate my hypothesis.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by humfrz

.......but, but, were they NEW Champion plugs ........ or, used ones, you found by rummaging through the trash cans in the service department of the local dealership ......??


humfrz

Brand new. The old 440 Magnum was just really hard on them. Not as hard as it was on fuel pumps though. Anybody that invested in Mopar parts stock then must have made a killing on me.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Here's what others have dug up.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8267

tl;dr due to the high compression direct injection nature of the FA20 it requires a specific uncommon plug design to operate well.

NGK has some good info on why different plugs matter and the tl;dr there is that different combustion environments need a different kind of spark to operate at the way it was intended to.
https://www.ngksparkplugs.com/about-...rk-plug-basics

Some conclusions you can draw from that: spark plugs are cheap because of economies of scale, there are literally hundreds of millions of spark plugs manufactured every year and I'd bet most of them fall into a few categories. When you make tens of millions of widgets per year you can get production costs very low, but for the FA20/BRZ/FRS/86 they're only making maybe a few hundred thousand per year.

Take the spark plug in a Toyota Camry, instead of making 50 million of those every year you only make 5 million. It doesn't cost any less to setup the factory and maintain the machinery but you are all of a sudden selling 1/10th of before, therefore prices must go up nearly 10-fold to maintain profitability.

And that's how what "should be a $2 spark plug" is now a "$20 spark plug"

(except now rare metals increase base cost but don't necessarily translate into lost profit margin based on economies of scale so we're comparing a $20 plug to a $8 plug)

Why do I think this is true at all? Because if there was any other engine using this spark plug it would have been known years ago and yet every parts website lists it as the only option for this car and nobody else uses it. If you can find something that does then I'll re-evaluate my hypothesis.

This ^ All day long THIS^

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Brand new. The old 440 Magnum was just really hard on them. Not as hard as it was on fuel pumps though. Anybody that invested in Mopar parts stock then must have made a killing on me.

Mechanical or electric fuel pump ...?? How did you manage to mess them up .....




humfrz

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by humfrz

Mechanical or electric fuel pump ...?? How did you manage to mess them up .....




humfrz

Mechanical. The heavy cam I had in it would rip them apart. Happened so often that I could change one on the side of the road in 5 minutes. Eventual went electric and just blanked off the hole in the block. Never had an issue again.

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Mechanical. The heavy cam I had in it would rip them apart. Happened so often that I could change one on the side of the road in 5 minutes. Eventual went electric and just blanked off the hole in the block. Never had an issue again.

Well, no wonder .....

You go and put a big, hairy, long duration, high lift cam in the engine, which the lobe that pushed the arm on the fuel pump, waaay to far and punctured the rubber diaphragm, when it was trying to feed all those carburetors, no doubt linked in series, with enough gas to get your 3 MPG ..... 1/4 mile at a time.......

Damn hot rodder!


humfrz

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by humfrz

Well, no wonder .....

You go and put a big, hairy, long duration, high lift cam in the engine, which the lobe that pushed the arm on the fuel pump, waaay to far and punctured the rubber diaphragm, when it was trying to feed all those carburetors, no doubt linked in series, with enough gas to get your 3 MPG ..... 1/4 mile at a time.......

Damn hot rodder!


humfrz

That is the perfect description!

[Sapphireho]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Eventual went electric and just blanked off the hole in the block.

Did the same with the 454 in my Chevelle. Didn't go thru mech pumps, just couldn't deliver for two 850 4 barrels.

[Sapphireho]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Because if there was any other engine using this spark plug it would have been known years ago and yet every parts website lists it as the only option for this car and nobody else uses it.

So does this mean if/when they stop making the twins we all better go out and buy a few sets of plugs?

[gravitylover]

^^ When the engine design changes appreciably I think it would be a good idea.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Sapphireho

So does this mean if/when they stop making the twins we all better go out and buy a few sets of plugs?

You'll be good at least 5 years after it gets shut down (I'd say closer to 10 before things start getting difficult), good manufacturers stockpile parts to keep cars on the road. There's a chance that the plug type actually becomes more common as compression ratios creep up and direct injection becomes more common. But if that doesn't happen and you're looking for plugs in ~30 years good luck.

But that might be true for all spark plugs at that point. And hey, maybe plug manufacturing becomes a niche industry and they build to order anyway.

Predicting the future is hard.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Sapphireho

So does this mean if/when they stop making the twins we all better go out and buy a few sets of plugs?

Originally Posted by gravitylover

^^ When the engine design changes appreciably I think it would be a good idea.

Originally Posted by strat61caster

You'll be good at least 5 years after it gets shut down (I'd say closer to 10 before things start getting difficult), good manufacturers stockpile parts to keep cars on the road. There's a chance that the plug type actually becomes more common as compression ratios creep up and direct injection becomes more common. But if that doesn't happen and you're looking for plugs in ~30 years good luck.

But that might be true for all spark plugs at that point. And hey, maybe plug manufacturing becomes a niche industry and they build to order anyway.

Predicting the future is hard.

I wouldn't sweat it too much.
Mind you anybody with NOS ones in 30 years can make a killing.

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by Sapphireho

Did the same with the 454 in my Chevelle. Didn't go thru mech pumps, just couldn't deliver for two 850 4 barrels.

......ANOTHER old hot rodder ......


humfrz

[BRZach]

Originally Posted by qqzj

I asked similar questions before.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118923

If you go with Toyota branded version, it is $14 each plus shipping. Total about $70. It is still not cheap. But much better than $88. Let's see who can beat this.

I was able to get $68.83 shipped !!