Third Party Testing: Crawford Billet Power Blocks (BPB / Manifold Spacers)

[Walla Walla]

could the difference come from the header, since nelsmar did the tune + BPB and shiv did Header + tune + BPB ?

[Shiv@Openflash]

Originally Posted by Walla Walla

could the difference come from the header, since nelsmar did the tune + BPB and shiv did Header + tune + BPB ?

It's possible. With the headers and tune, the car makes come pretty good top end power. Very little top end roll off. Peak power at 6700-7000rpm. And then it falls off by only 5-6hp by 7500rpm. With stock headers it would roll off much more and make peak hp at a slightly lower RPM.

But to re-state, additional tuning was able to negate most of the top end caused by the BPB on the OTS map. So then you are left with the really nice +10whp gains in the 5500-6500rpm range.

And I should also point out that one thing that makes an OTS map so successful in a wide range of cars is that it isn't aggressive where it doesn't need to be. But it's clear that needs can change when changing things like runner lengths. A drop off in top end VE would, by definition, necessitate more ignition timing advance up top. And that is exactly what we gave it (among other things) to get back the power back.

[Crawford Performance]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Where MotoIQ's tests done on a filled modified car with a non-stock tune? I don't think we all tested comparable cars in comparable conditions or even on the same kind of dyno.

The car/dyno we used are also used to developer our OTS maps so I have a fair bit of faith it in and in the process applied. Hopefully we will all learn more as more dyno results, from different cars, come in.

MotoIS's tests were performed on a totally stock car which tells us what the minimum overall gains will be. When you add your components and tune with our Power Blocks, the overall results will be much better as you are seeing! Good work.

[R2]

Originally Posted by nelsmar

http://w1.weather.gov/obhistory/KPHX.html
http://w1.weather.gov/obhistory/KSFO.html
Note the test dates... I tested on 3/29 you tested on 4/2. Both our barometric averages are nearly the same on those days. Both showing roughly 29.9 inHg. Phoenix isn't a very high altitude at all.

edit: weather.gov doesnt have the 39th but shows most dates around there, here is another link for phoenix:
http://www.localconditions.com/weath...85001/past.php

The pressure that weather stations report is the "altimeter setting" based upon present atmospheric conditions. This "setting" is used to calibrate an altimeter to correctly show your actual altitude relative to sea level. To get your actual barometric pressure you need to use this setting in conjunction with your actual altitude.


To make it easy, this site http://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_hp_dp.htm has a handy calculator that lets you see the relative pressure (as compared to sea level).


I don't believe the speed of sound changes a whole lot at the low altitudes you are testing at so there likely aren't any significant resonant changes. I could be wrong though.

[StormTrooper]

I would guess it has more to do with full exhaust setup vs a stock car....

Essentially hitting a ceiling on power without FI or changing parts internal to the engine.

[nelsmar]

Originally Posted by StormTrooper

I would guess it has more to do with full exhaust setup vs a stock car....

Essentially hitting a ceiling on power without FI or changing parts internal to the engine.

I may be able to arrange testing of that as well... Depends on the owners decision though. I was tuning a local with a header and header back exhaust who was thinking of ordering these as well.

[Crawford Performance]

Originally Posted by nelsmar

I may be able to arrange testing of that as well... Depends on the owners decision though. I was tuning a local with a header and header back exhaust who was thinking of ordering these as well.

Cali bound tonight or in the morning??

[nelsmar]

Originally Posted by Crawford Performance

Cali bound tonight or in the morning??

I don't have a car right now otherwise I could leave in the morning.

[Crawford Performance]

Originally Posted by nelsmar

I don't have a car right now otherwise I could leave in the morning.

Dude... should I send my GF to pick you up!

[Boxer486]

Originally Posted by cslntuee

I cannot read Japanese well.
However, I saw some improvement result from the dyno.
http://www.auto-craft.net/shop/produ...?product_id=48


Thanks.

I call Bullshit on that dyno. It just seems way too proportional and linear to its baseline to be accurate. Seeing that much torque improvement down so low makes no sense using a larger TB, especially on this engine making 100hp/L. Without using something like a venturi no way does just increasing throttle body diameter improve lowend response. In fact you slow air down and create hesitation. Defies physics. If you like the feel of your torque dip, you'll LOVE the feel of a larger throttle body. TB are for larger displacement engines with choked airflow or dyno queens looking a few more largely irrelevant peak.

I also can't see if they didn't add more than just the TB like a full system and/or a tune. Btw, there are some tricks you can do to make a dyno improve or lie within that margin of error.

Look what I found:

[nelsmar]

Originally Posted by Crawford Performance

Dude... should I send my GF to pick you up!

Do it.

[cslntuee]

Originally Posted by Boxer486

I call Bullshit on that dyno. It just seems way too proportional and linear to its baseline to be accurate. Seeing that much torque improvement down so low makes no sense using a larger TB, especially on this engine making 100hp/L. Without using something like a venturi no way does just increasing throttle body diameter improve lowend response. In fact you slow air down and create hesitation. Defies physics. If you like the feel of your torque dip, you'll LOVE the feel of a larger throttle body. TB are for larger displacement engines with choked airflow or dyno queens looking a few more largely irrelevant peak.

I also can't see if they didn't add more than just the TB like a full system and/or a tune. Btw, there are some tricks you can do to make a dyno improve or lie within that margin of error.

Look what I found:

To be honest, I am a beginner in this field.
I do not have too much background knowledge in this topic.
(The torque unit which that Japanese website using looks different. I am not sure that is big improvement in low RPM or not)
I personal believe that Big TB is the similar case as intake pipe.
It will slow the air flow when the diameter is increase.
It should cause losing the torque in the low RPM. It is what I learn in physics.
However, here is some intack pipe result. We can see the torque result
in the low rpm. Actually, it shows slightly increase.
Perrin
http://perrinperformance.com/i-13324...-fr-s-brz.html



Zetaperformance
http://www.zetaperformanceltd.com/ca...201/image/661/

I do not know how to explain this. It is not match what I learn.
Here is the same case for BPB. It should strongly benefit for the low RPM
from the physics or I should say that we should see the different from the dyno at least.
However, it looks almost same result as stock in low RPM.(It helps
a lot in middle range)

I am not trying to say big TB will help. However, it might something
useful there, because there are a lot of aftermarket big TB for BRZ now.
I will be a little bit surprising me that they all try to bullshit.
I also not very trust the BPB at beginning as the same logic, because
I did not see any other aftermarket BPB.
However, I saw so many dyno evidence from Crawford BPB.
It convinced me. I also hope that I can see some big TB dyno result
for BRZ, before I try to challenge those aftermarket TB company
are bullshit or hope those company can show more dyno result.
Thanks.

[DriftHappens]

That appears to be for the inlet hose, not TB. I think it would contribute gains simple due to the fact it's not convoluted and has a much smoother airflow path. Correct me if i'm wrong, (road trip and i'm tired, lol)

Originally Posted by cslntuee

To be honest, I am a beginner in this field.
I do not have too much background knowledge in this topic.
I personal believe that Big TB is the similar case as intack pipe.
It will slow the air flow when the diameter is increase.
It should cause losing the torque in the low RPM. It is what I learn in physics.
However, here is some intack pipe result. We can see the torque result
in the low rpm. Actually, it shows slightly increase.
Perrin
http://perrinperformance.com/i-13324...-fr-s-brz.html



Zetaperformance
http://www.zetaperformanceltd.com/ca...201/image/661/

I do not know how to explain this. It is not match what I learn.
Here is the same case for BPB. It should strongly benefit for the low RPM
from the physics or I should say that we should see the different from the dyno at least.
However, it looks almost same result as stock in low RPM.(It helps
a lot in middle range)

I am not trying to say big TB will help. However, it might something
useful there, because there are a lot of aftermarket big TB for BRZ now.
I will be a little bit surprising me that they all try to bullshit.
I also not very trust the BPB at beginning as the same logic, because
I did not see any other aftermarket BPB.
However, I saw so many dyno evidence from Crawford BPB.
It convinced me. I also hope that I can see some big TB dyno result
for BRZ, before I try to challenge those aftermarket TB company
are bullshit or hope those company can show more dyno result.
Thanks.

[cslntuee]

Originally Posted by DriftHappens

That appears to be for the inlet hose, not TB. I think it would contribute gains simple due to the fact it's not convoluted and has a much smoother airflow path. Correct me if i'm wrong, (road trip and i'm tired, lol)

Yes, you are correct.

I wrote on my original post "I personal believe that Big TB is the similar case
as "intake pipe".

I think that will slow the air flow when the diameter is increase.(
I mean the intake pipe)

It should cause losing the torque in the low RPM. (It will help for high RPM
that I understand as you mentioned)

Thanks.