FR-S vs. 370z, end all be all of discussions

[fatoni]

i track my cars. never had the issue of snap oversteer but the ability to lift in order to rotate is more a solution than a problem. it also sounds like youre saying you intentionally unbalanced the car and then you undo all youve done while adding massive amounts of drag. i understand why aero is important but you make it sound like a bandaid or an afterthought. it most likely takes all of the power of a stock tc to combat drag at less than 130mph so a gt wing. also that comment about how it helps during braking is kind of a double edged sword. every bit that it helps during braking, it is counter productive during accelerating

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i track my cars. never had the issue of snap oversteer but the ability to lift in order to rotate is more a solution than a problem. it also sounds like youre saying you intentionally unbalanced the car and then you undo all youve done while adding massive amounts of drag. i understand why aero is important but you make it sound like a bandaid or an afterthought. it most likely takes all of the power of a stock tc to combat drag at less than 130mph so a gt wing. also that comment about how it helps during braking is kind of a double edged sword. every bit that it helps during braking, it is counter productive during accelerating

That's what you got out of what I wrote? Means you completely missed what I said, as that's not even close to what I said. Intentionally unbalanced the car? You have to bring the rear up to speed as you change the dynamics to the front. Its not intentionally unbalancing...lol. I didn't make it sound like a badaid or afterthought, that's the way you read it for whatever reason. It is no more of a bandaid or afterthought than say adding an additional 200whp to your car and putting in an LSD and upgraded tires to combat traction loss. Even my cars alignment is setup for track. After researching and picking brains of the guys with proven setups (PTuning, World Racing...etc), I went with -1.8 degrees front and -0.5 rear. With Zero toe.

Not a double edged sword as it benefits exceed any trading off or adverse effects it produces. My club boys had similar thought process as you in that last statement. They quickly changed their mind about the idea when they road with me. I pass cars making twice the HP I am making now, imagine when I'm on my new turbo setup.

Going back to your comment about not getting lift throttle oversteer in your car. That only tells me you drive either slower or your track is configured in a way that you never have that issue. Try driving a car through a high speed sweeper withought the aero. Then turn around install aero on the same car and I assure you, you will be doing double the speed through that same sweeper.

What track you run on? Got videos to show me how quick you enter and exit corners? I record all my track vids and they are loaded on Youtube.

[midenginebias]

If a corner exit speed of a high downforce car is 100mph and one with no added downforce is 90mph, and they have the same terminal speed at the end of a straightaway, guess who is ahead?

The more time spent being on the gas pedal accelerating, the lower the lap times.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

That's what you got out of what I wrote? Means you completely missed what I said, as that's not even close to what I said. Intentionally unbalanced the car? You have to bring the rear up to speed as you change the dynamics to the front. Its not intentionally unbalancing...lol. I didn't make it sound like a badaid or afterthought, that's the way you read it for whatever reason. It is no more of a bandaid or afterthought than say adding an additional 200whp to your car and putting in an LSD and upgraded tires to combat traction loss. Even my cars alignment is setup for track. After researching and picking brains of the guys with proven setups (PTuning, World Racing...etc), I went with -1.8 degrees front and -0.5 rear. With Zero toe.

Not a double edged sword as it benefits exceed any trading off or adverse effects it produces. My club boys had similar thought process as you in that last statement. They quickly changed their mind about the idea when they road with me. I pass cars making twice the HP I am making now, imagine when I'm on my new turbo setup.

Going back to your comment about not getting lift throttle oversteer in your car. That only tells me you drive either slower or your track is configured in a way that you never have that issue. Try driving a car through a high speed sweeper withought the aero. Then turn around install aero on the same car and I assure you, you will be doing double the speed through that same sweeper.

What track you run on? Got videos to show me how quick you enter and exit corners? I record all my track vids and they are loaded on Youtube.

i dont have vids but between california speedway, buttonwillow and willow springs theres plenty and i guess adams motorpark counts. its a cart track though.
it seems like we are just arguing semantics now and were not even on topic so ill stop here

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by fatoni

cool thanks

This is all I've got so far (multilink or double wishbone):



Basically because of pivot 'A', the arc of the AB lower arm attached to the C shock doesn't change with wheel offset.

So what affects the wheel rate is the proportions of the arm overall length and the mounting point of the shock relative to the body-side point. Also the mounting angle of the spring changes wheel rate as well.

The calculations for wheel rate start with the coil rate (what most people are familiar with) adjusted for mounting angle. This is the fitted rate. The wheel rate is the fitted rate adjusted for leverage.

[fatoni]

i guess where i get lost is the forces generated dont come from the end of the lca. so maybe not distances traveled but the forces required to generate them would change the required amount of damping. do you see where im coming from?

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by midenginebias

If a corner exit speed of a high downforce car is 100mph and one with no added downforce is 90mph, and they have the same terminal speed at the end of a straightaway, guess who is ahead?

The more time spent being on the gas pedal accelerating, the lower the lap times.

The flip side to that is.... Less time spent braking or needing too slow down is carrying your momentum throughout the entire track. You can have more power than another and still turn slower lap times because you have to spend a lot of time braking or slowing down to keep from flying off track. One at 100mph and one at 90mph (10mph) difference is huge. Imagine doing that throughout every corner of the track. Pretty soon you are going to be lapping the other guy without the Aero.

Originally Posted by fatoni

i dont have vids but between california speedway, buttonwillow and willow springs theres plenty and i guess adams motorpark counts. its a cart track though.
it seems like we are just arguing semantics now and were not even on topic so ill stop here

What even is your argument? Or what exactly don't you understand. I have tracked my car with and withouth the Aero. My setup is based on already proven setups...not understanding what you are even doubting to begin with. You asked how I came to needing a GT wing or thinking it was useful. I told you. Until you experience what it is like, for yourself, then perhaps you may not understand. I didn't put it there because I thought it was "cool". I didn't mount it on aluminum sheet metal plates on the body because of the look. It is direct feedback from Pro Time Attack drivers driving or building Track tC's.

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i guess where i get lost is the forces generated dont come from the end of the lca. so maybe not distances traveled but the forces required to generate them would change the required amount of damping. do you see where im coming from?

My Tein SS Coilovers will be revalved and redampened to run 600lb springs on the front and 900lb springs on the rear. The wheels I am getting are custom made. The offset is the same or close to the stock wheels. When they are custom you can make whatever offset you want. The wheels are used too, from another track prepared tC.
Need wide body as I mentioned, so I can stuff 285 or 295wide tires under the front fenders. Probably 255 or 265 under the rear fenders.

[Ryephile]

This thread has devolved into us finding out that fatoni doesn't know much about suspension or aero because he tracks a kart, which has neither.


Back on topic?



Yes, they're both 2 door FR coupes, but with a big price delta, different powertrain style, and likely a 2+2 vs. 2-seater configuration, are these cars comparable in the real world? To the uneducated buyer, I say yes. To the informed enthusiast, I say no.

[Dragonitti]

And +1 on the last part.

[old greg]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

This thread has devolved into us finding out that fatoni doesn't know much about suspension

He seems to know more than either of you two are giving him credit for. In a MacPherson strut with a non-vertical Damper, or an SLA with unequal and/or non-parallel wishbones, the distance from the lower control arm pivot to the center of force of the contact patch does affect wheel rate. Not by much but it does, and for exactly the reason that Fatoni thinks it should.

The mechanism that creates camber change with suspension movement is back-drivable. Any change in tire overturning moment will cause a change in compressive force at the spring. This change in force isn't necessarily very big, and a change in offset won't necessarily cause any bigger change than you get naturally due to contact patch deformation under load. But there is a change, negligible though it may be, and Fatoni's reasoning is correct.

[Dragonitti]

I'm not the one who said it. Just chuckled at it. In either case nothing I have done or plan to do will cause negative effects. Its pretty well planned out thus far. But I wouldn't be against trying new things as long as it makes me faster after track testing it.

There is a track event this Saturday, but ill be at Formula D instead.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

The flip side to that is.... Less time spent braking or needing too slow down is carrying your momentum throughout the entire track. You can have more power than another and still turn slower lap times because you have to spend a lot of time braking or slowing down to keep from flying off track. One at 100mph and one at 90mph (10mph) difference is huge. Imagine doing that throughout every corner of the track. Pretty soon you are going to be lapping the other guy without the Aero.



What even is your argument? Or what exactly don't you understand. I have tracked my car with and withouth the Aero. My setup is based on already proven setups...not understanding what you are even doubting to begin with. You asked how I came to needing a GT wing or thinking it was useful. I told you. Until you experience what it is like, for yourself, then perhaps you may not understand. I didn't put it there because I thought it was "cool". I didn't mount it on aluminum sheet metal plates on the body because of the look. It is direct feedback from Pro Time Attack drivers driving or building Track tC's.

i wasnt arguing. you asked a question and i answered it. i was never even saying that the wing was pointless i was just curious as to how you came to the conclusion it was necessary. all anybody has thrown at me are these fictitious scenarios with arbitrary numbers tied to them.

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i wasnt arguing. you asked a question and i answered it. i was never even saying that the wing was pointless i was just curious as to how you came to the conclusion it was necessary. all anybody has thrown at me are these fictitious scenarios with arbitrary numbers tied to them.

My answers are based on my own pearsonal experience. When I answered you about the wing, just seemed like you were doubting it or something. Just know I benefit from it greatly compared to my other friends racing on the track with me. They can't carry the speed I can, and they have to brake where I don't. Its a collective combination of the setup and not just one component that's key.