This is the C8 mid-engine Chevy Corvette

[bfrank1972]

I think I like it - I'm hoping the rear is a little more rounded off and not quite the standard corvette square butt.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I wasn’t really supporting the conclusion, just the premise, that they have had recently more sports vehicles than just the Camaro and Corvette. Toyota has been out of the performance game for much longer, and that is probably where he was going with his initial statement.

Yeah that's partially what I was going for.

Originally Posted by ZDan

So, "let's not get into it", and just go with your definition?

Nah, let's get into it!

I like Camaros, I owned a Camaro. A Camaro is emphatically NOT a sports car. Too big, too heavy.

"Excellent power" is NOT a requisite feature for a sports car. Most of the sports cars that best define and represent the genre (to me!) have not had a lot of power. Sprites and Midgets, Miatas and Elises, these are sports cars. Muscle-bound 2-door sedans? Not to me...
Even a Corvette is *to me* more of an uberperforming supercar than a pure, minimalist, lightweight sports car.

But whatevs, to each his own. I'm sure many Mustang/Camaro and even Challenger owners like to think they have a sports car, so why not let them...

I'm not referring to any old Camaros. But I'd absolutely call the Alpha chassis Camaro a sports car (maybe not the 4 cylinder one, but all other coupe sub-models). Yes it's heavy, but unfortunately that's a reality of the times we live in. If you want to disqualify it on weight (V6's weight) then you're disqualifying a lot of other vehicles as well.

It's not like I'm over here saying the 4200 lb Challenger SRT8 is a sports car.

[bcj]

Originally Posted by Rampage

There is a difference between "sporty" cars and a sports car. A lot of people consider the new breed of SUVs and crossovers as sporty cars or even sports cars. I don't.

IMO Sport Utility Vehicles originated with a Utility Vehicle you would strap all your sporty equipment into and onto to grind through the muck to get to the trailhead or riverside.
Once there, you get your Sport equipment out/off to subsequently break various bones.

Since it's got Sport in the name, a lot of people have conflated that into the idea that it should be sporty to drive as well. They run out and tell everyone "I've got a Sport UV! Whooooo!!!!"

They completely gloss over the Utility Vehicle part.

[Rampage]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

Did you own an Alpha Camaro though? I'm not talking about past Camaros, I'm talking about the current Camaro being made right now.



The Camaro is RWD, 2 doors, focuses on driver involvement, and handles better than cars twice its price. It's not very lightweight, but that's about it.

I have a great deal of respect for the new Camaros and Mustangs. My brother has a ZL1 and I love it. They have great speed and world class handling plus a lot of refinement.

Absolutely among the top GT cars on the planet.

Originally Posted by bcj

IMO Sport Utility Vehicles originated with a Utility Vehicle you would strap all your sporty equipment into and onto to grind through the muck to get to the trailhead or riverside.
Once there, you get your Sport equipment out/off to subsequently break various bones.

Since it's got Sport in the name, a lot of people have conflated that into the idea that it should be sporty to drive as well. They run out and tell everyone "I've got a Sport UV! Whooooo!!!!"

They completely gloss over the Utility Vehicle part.

Marketing plays a big part in that. People want to believe they own a sporty vehicle and the advertisers play on that. Case in point, check out the new ads for the Acura RDX and the Nissan Kicks.

Now, about that new Vette..................

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Of course language evolves and so do the meanings of words. But there is and should be a distinction between what are FAST cars and what are SPORTS cars. If any fast car is a sports car, we don't need the term at all.

Regarding what the term means now, Wikipedia seems like a reasonable place to go.

A car may be a sporting automobile without being a sports car. Performance modifications of regular, production cars, such as sport compacts, sports sedans, muscle cars, pony cars and hot hatches, generally are not considered sports cars, yet share traits common to sports cars.

Did you just add that to Wikipedia?

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Rampage

I have a great deal of respect for the new Camaros and Mustangs. My brother has a ZL1 and I love it. They have great speed and world class handling plus a lot of refinement.

Absolutely among the top GT cars on the planet.



Marketing plays a big part in that. People want to believe they own a sporty vehicle and the advertisers play on that. Case in point, check out the new ads for the Acura RDX and the Nissan Kicks.

Now, about that new Vette..................

We currently have a radio commercial by Toyota playing on a regular basis.
The first time I heard it I thought I knew where it was headed. I was grossly mistaken.


In a sexy female voice is it says (roughly):
"We all like sports in our lives so why drive something boring. * engine reving noises... A sports car can be fun as well as practical. Be it on the open highway, a winding road or even around town everybody can enjoy the freedom and exhilaration of a sports car. *Tires squealing noises... Come in and see the whole new Camry line up today and get some fun back in your drive"




I SHIT YOU NOT they say "come see the Camry lineup" for your sports car needs! A bloody Camry.

[KFTH86]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

We currently have a radio commercial by Toyota playing on a regular basis.
The first time I heard it I thought I knew where it was headed. I was grossly mistaken.


In a sexy female voice is it says (roughly):
"We all like sports in our lives so why drive something boring. * engine reving noises... A sports car can be fun as well as practical. Be it on the open highway, a winding road or even around town everybody can enjoy the freedom and exhilaration of a sports car. *Tires squealing noises... Come in and see the whole new Camry line up today and get some fun back in your drive"




I SHIT YOU NOT they say "come see the Camry lineup" for your sports car needs! A bloody Camry.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

Did you own an Alpha Camaro though? I'm not talking about past Camaros, I'm talking about the current Camaro being made right now.

No, mine was 250 lb. lighter and on a 9" shorter wheelbase vs. the current one.

The Camaro is RWD, 2 doors, focuses on driver involvement, and handles better than cars twice its price. It's not very lightweight, but that's about it.

Bingo. It's also a bit on the large side... It's too big and too heavy for *me* to consider it a sports car. It is what it is, a 2-door version of a luxury sedan, with fantastic levels of performance available in some models.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by ZDan

No, mine was 250 lb. lighter and on a 9" shorter wheelbase vs. the current one.

Bingo. It's also a bit on the large side... It's too big and too heavy for *me* to consider it a sports car. It is what it is, a 2-door version of a luxury sedan, with fantastic levels of performance available in some models.

Seems like your personal definition would exclude many supercars and hypercars as sports cars. It also seems that a model is excluded from being a sports car as long as it comes in less equipped levels.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

I'm not referring to any old Camaros.

For 20 years the car in V8 form was 3300-3400 lb. on a 101" wheelbase, vs. current Alpha at 3750 lb. on a 110" wheelbase. And it's not like those cars didn't handle well relative to the era, one year in the 80s Car and Driver proclaimed the Z28 the best-handling American car over the Corvette...

It's not like I'm over here saying the 4200 lb Challenger SRT8 is a sports car.

Camaro SS, Challenger SRT8, and Miata. Would you say that the Camaro belongs in the same class as the Challenger (which is only 12% heavier) or the Miata?

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Did you just add that to Wikipedia?

Kidding? Of course not, I legit went to Wikipedia to see for myself what the current entry was. I didn't add these lines in either:
A sports car, or sportscar, is a small, usually two-seater automobile designed for spirited performance and nimble handling.
Sports cars may be spartan or luxurious, but high maneuverability and light weight are requisite.

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Seems like your personal definition would exclude many supercars and hypercars as sports cars. It also seems that a model is excluded from being a sports car as long as it comes in less equipped levels.

For *me*, "sports car" implies something more elemental and simple than a supercar or hypercar. When cars sacrifice lightness and simplicity in the name of megaperformance, for me they're moving into supercar territory. But there's a vast grey area in there...

Whether a car comes in a less-equipped model has nothing to do with it, I didn't mean to imply that at all. The fact that there are lesser-performing Camaros doesn't make it any more or less a "sports car" to me. If we get the new Supra in 4-cylinder form, that lesser-performing version will likely be *more* of a "sports car" to me.

[Yardjass]

Originally Posted by daiheadjai

As for my original remark about decades, I'm just amused by how the mid-engine Corvette has been shown in some form or another, probably longer than I've been alive - and yet I don't see the same criticism as I do with the (admittedly long) Supra reveal. Although @Dadhawk has a point that we haven't been inundated with camo pics of the Corvette like we have for the Supra*




*Yet.

Its kind of hard to criticize when GM is bringing out new Corvette trims and entirely new Corvette models very regularly, and has consistently offered something for sale every year. They may not have delivered a mid engine one yet but they deliver something new time and time again, as opposed to Honda and Toyota that had nothing but teasers for years.

Originally Posted by Tcoat

We currently have a radio commercial by Toyota playing on a regular basis.
The first time I heard it I thought I knew where it was headed. I was grossly mistaken.


In a sexy female voice is it says (roughly):
"We all like sports in our lives so why drive something boring. * engine reving noises... A sports car can be fun as well as practical. Be it on the open highway, a winding road or even around town everybody can enjoy the freedom and exhilaration of a sports car. *Tires squealing noises... Come in and see the whole new Camry line up today and get some fun back in your drive"




I SHIT YOU NOT they say "come see the Camry lineup" for your sports car needs! A bloody Camry.

This isn't the first time either. Remember that "grounded to the ground" drivel that they were running for the Camry about 10 years back?

[daiheadjai]

Fair point.
If the latest Jalopnik article/interview of Tada is correct, Toyota initially planned a Supra successor as early as 1997, but then canned it to chase their goal of being the #1 volume automaker.

[gymratter]