STX Rules and Setup Questions

[justint5387]

Originally Posted by vroom4

It should be pointed out that it didn't seem like therewas hardly any fully prepped STX cars at the top-ish spots at nationals this year.

Lots of heavy batteries, seats, OEM diff, OeM bushing, etc

I would say some are very well prepped. Seats and battery may get you 50lbs at max. Some drivers weigh 50lbs more than others.

Some people actually prefer the OEM diff vs. an aftermarket diff.

[Kostamojen]

Originally Posted by justint5387

If 1.5 sec to 2 sec is close to you. That's a lot of speed difference in the corners.

Thats just off the top times from nationals. I'm sure if you calculate an average time its much closer, plus those top times are more reflective of cars with $10,000+ invested rather than the minimum needed to be "competitive".

You can change endlinks in CS as well. You will probably want to spend money on the TRD parts as well.

Endlinks aren't a requirement in C-stock. Heck, I would still use the stock links if not for the fact some coilovers change the mounting location, requiring adjustable length endlinks based on where you have the height set.

[justint5387]

Originally Posted by Kostamojen

Thats just off the top times from nationals. I'm sure if you calculate an average time its much closer, plus those top times are more reflective of cars with $10,000+ invested rather than the minimum needed to be "competitive".


Endlinks aren't a requirement in C-stock. Heck, I would still use the stock links if not for the fact some coilovers change the mounting location, requiring adjustable length endlinks based on where you have the height set.

They don't really have 10k invested. I was there to see what they have and I know what we have. I driven minimum prepped ones that can be just as fast, shocks may not have the same "feel" but its get the job done.

If you source your part smartly, it can be done with 5 to 6k.

[smg1138]

Since we're in the subject, can stock end links be used with the Strano bar on KW coilovers? I had some Whiteline adjustable links last year and they clunked. I'd like to try running the Strano bar with the stock links. I'm lowered about 1 1/4" from stock right now.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Kostamojen

Thats just off the top times from nationals. I'm sure if you calculate an average time its much closer, plus those top times are more reflective of cars with $10,000+ invested rather than the minimum needed to be "competitive".

Times spread further apart if you average the top 10, local champ tour was 3s between top STX and CS times (combined, 113-116) but the average for the top 10 was spread out to ~5s, 115s average to 120s average for both courses so the average competitive STX car will be ~2.5s faster than an average competitive CS car on a ~60s course. Similar story when I looked at last years Nats.

Yeah you could spend $7k+ on suspension, $3k on header and custom tune, $3k on high end wheels, $1.5k for a diff and probably another few thousand in odds and ends like bushings and lightweight stuff but that's way overkill, there's serious levels of diminishing returns on that stuff, you can flip through earlier pages, the guys that are running 3+ seconds faster than midpack cars are doing it with heavy batteries and OE seats and bushings, it's all talent.

The reality is for the average guy about $2k in coilover/suspension and <$1700 grabs you brand new RPF1's with RE71R's mounted right now and you've got a car that's a blast to drive with a ton of adjustment and setup potential that will run pretty well locally. You can skip the header and tune, bushings, fancy diff and high end coilovers and still slide it around like a maniac. At only $165/tire for 245/40/17 RE71R's right now and the plethora of coilovers available under $2k you can have a lot of fun for not much more money than CS imo.

See you in a few weeks at Crow's, where I'll probably still be on the stock powertrain unless I get a Christmas miracle in April.

[Im_SPEED]

ok yes going to beat the dead horse again so the spc arms are both versions that have this "illegal" bushing. i have the original cheapo ones with the sliders.is that the same bushing im having a hard time finding info on the old original ones

[renfield90]

It's not like an antenna. At all. The rules say nothing explicit about replacing antennas, only some "comfort and convenience" language that requires some judgement to interpret. Bearings with more metal than OEM are specifically spelled out as illegal. There isn't any room for judgement or interpretation.

You wouldn't try to run a 9.5" wide wheel, would you? That's the more accurate analogy. 9.5" wheels are illegal and there's no room for interpretation on that.

Maybe you think a 13th place trophy is worthless, but for those who have been around this sport for a long time it means a lot; and in a class like STX it's actually pretty damn hard to get 13th place. People work their ass off all year to earn that. It's not right for anyone to deny that from them with an illegal car and there are procedures to remedy that.

I agree it's unfortunate that legal bushings cost more. I'm not against changing rules either (although there's very good reasons for this rule). But until then, rules are rules and if you plan to trophy at nats, you better follow them.

[renfield90]

Originally Posted by justint5387

If 1.5 sec to 2 sec is close to you. That's a lot of speed difference in the corners.

This. I had what was probably a top ten CS car (driver is a different story) and promptly after nationals sat down in a well-sorted (though far from full tilt) STX twin. It is night and day, and 2 seconds is a huge gap.

In the CS car you are stuck with what is fundamentally not the best suspension, so you make a bunch of compromises to make the car do some things really well and try to drive around the things it doesn't do well. My car could slalom really well, and put down power at corner exit really well, but was pushy everywhere else as a result. It needed patient lines that allowed you to attack the sections where the car was good.

A good STX car has no bad manners or foibles to deal with. It's just good at everything. It takes a set much faster, so you never feel like you're waiting for the car to be stable before giving it the next input. It makes the CS car feel like a clumsy, blunt instrument even with all the TRD goodies.

[finch1750]

Originally Posted by justint5387

If you source your part smartly, it can be done with 5 to 6k.

This is what I'm doing. I run a few events a year while building parts (I know driver mod means more but it's also been a time issue as well). Once the car is payed off next year I'll have funds to run more events.

So far I have spent about $1400 on mid tier coils, a few whiteline bushings, and light wheels just from coping up deals. I would replace brake pads and my catback anyway so I dont count that towards prep cost really. I will prob run my first full season and regional event in 2017 and go from there.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Im_SPEED

ok yes going to beat the dead horse again so the spc arms are both versions that have this "illegal" bushing. i have the original cheapo ones with the sliders.is that the same bushing im having a hard time finding info on the old original ones

Just check it per the rulebook:

14.8.B.
Suspension bushings may be replaced with bushings of any materials (except metal) as long as they fit in the original location. Offset bushings may be used. In a replacement bushing, the amount of metal relative to the amount of non-metallic material may not be increased. This does not authorize a change in type of bushing (e.g., ball and socket replacing a cylindrical bushing) or use of a bushing with an angled hole whose direction differs from that of the original bushing. If the standard bushing accommodated multi-axis motion via compliance of the component material(s), the replacement bushing may not be changed to accommodate such motion via a change in bushing type, for example to a spherical bearing or similar component involving internal moving parts. Pins or keys may be used to prevent the rotation of alternate bushings but may serve no other purpose than that of retaining the bushing in the desired position.

So the bushing should be a metal sleeve inside a rubber material inside the arm, it shouldn't be able to move or rotate at all, if you look at the illegal SPC it's basically a heim joint:

http://www.spcalignment.com/index.ph...article&id=291

Also worth noting, LCA's can't have multiple holes for adjusting damper/sway bar mounting location:

14.8.H.5
The replacement arms or mounts must attach to the original standard
mounting points. All bushings must meet the requirements of
Section 14.8.B. Intermediate mounting points (e.g., shock/spring
mounts) may not be moved or relocated on the arm, except as incidental
to the camber adjustment. The knuckle/bearing housing/
spindle assembly cannot be modified or replaced.

And since we're beating a dead horse, that bushing doesn't mean jack to performance.
Seriously take your OE or legal LCA, bolt it up to just the chassis at full torque and move it around, that bushing does not restrict any movement that would make the SPC joint beneficial. Going to metal to prevent deflection is such a minor change compared to how much rubber is in the rest of the subframe, like was said earlier Lewis Hamilton probably couldn't tell the difference. That bushing isn't going to take a trophy away from anybody.

As a side note while reading up, noticed the Whiteline roll center correction kit is illegal, probably repeated info but it was on the 'I need to investigate' list until now.

14.8.A
Ride height may only be altered by suspension adjustments, the use of
spacing blocks, leaf spring shackles, torsion bar levers, or change or
modification of springs or coil spring perches. This does not allow the
use of spacers that alter suspension geometry, such as those between
the hub carrier and lower suspension arm.

Now that, that might take a trophy away from someone...

[Silverspeed]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Now that, that might take a trophy away from someone...

Agreed!

[DocWalt]

"take a trophy away from someone"

[Blue Gt]

I agree with everything but the cost estimate for wheels and tires.
New RPF-1's are $1,116.00 delivered. Trust me I know, DP


[QUOTE=Kostamojen;2590021]ST-X:

Headers + OFT = $1000 (Car section + catback another $1000)
Mid-range coilovers and camber bolts = $1500
Front swaybar and endlinks = $300
Brake pads and fluid = $200
RE71R's plus light 17x9's = $1500

Thats $4500-5500 right there... Not including weight saving measures or beefier brakes or bushings

[e1_griego]

I've spent a lot more, but the car works so well that I'm not regretting it at all (alright, maybe a slight bit).

Two weekends in a row of wet events, hopefully dry this weekend so I can atually push and see what fixes (if any) I want to make.