F/I Blowing motors facts

[Toyarzee]

You can't triple stamp a double stamp after no-take-backsies. There, consider yourself educated.

[xsnapshot]

So does that mean a totally stock FA20 powered BRZ that is on a dyno inside a chamber that is filled with with 33% oxygen vs 20% is forced induction?

And that a car on pikes peak is.....negative induction?

[Scott@HKSUSA]

Originally Posted by xkalelx

So cars at sea level are forced induction and cars in Denver are NA. The cars have to aspirate harder where there's less oxygen right? It's all about the oxygen content right?

By that rationale, any NA engine that achieves over 100% VE is Forced Induction. Stock FA20 - F/I. Stock F20C - F/I. Ferrari 055 - F/I <- And that's a true feat in itself since F/I wasn't allowed in Formula 1.

None of us know it all, but I try to learn everything with humility, not by humiliation.

[BigFatFlip]

Originally Posted by Scott@HKSUSA

None of us know it all, but let's all try to learn everything with humility, not by humiliation.

Fixed

[totopo]

Jeez man, what's the hate? Why is one side posting nothing but meme's and sarcasm and hate? I feel like the snarky comments are completely unfounded, add nothing to the discussion, and haven't been backed up with anything. When I go back and read this thread, it seems like there are a few people being reasonable, and then a bunch of people trying to derail the thread.

The question of is nitrous FI is kind of debated back and forth on various forums and it is really a stupid argument if you understand it. It's nitrous, it's not really NA, or FI.

Why did this question come about? Because CSG Mike claimed that there was a 300whp NA fa20 (implying stock bottom), and that a 300whp NA engine wouldn't need strengthened rods, then when challenged (it'll probably never happen, and never happen on a stock bottom;i explained it in a post back on page 2 or 3 or something), backed up and said it was on nitrous.

So to kind of back up, and why this argument is stupid, conceptually, there are only so many ways to get more HP out of an engine. You can suck in more air (displacement/FI), you can burn your air more efficiently (MBT), you can compress your air fuel mixture more (octane/e85/methanol), or you can rev higher.

So what does nitrous do? it does multiple things. It cools the intake temperature, which increase both the efficiency and the amount of oxygen. It then provides more oxygen into the system to burn when the 02 is dissociated from the nitrogen. Then it lets you compress your mixture more because of the knock retardation. It is completely different than fuel, it's the opposite side. To do work, you burn fuel in the presence of an oxidizer. Nitrous is the oxidizer, not the fuel. Like take for example a rocket engine (that doesn't consume atmospheric oxygen. One such liquid rocket fuel is nitrous oxide fuel blend. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrous_oxide_fuel_blend). This completely uses nitrous oxide as the sole source of oxidizer (oxygen).

So to bring it back to what does it mean for engine internals, or specifically the rod. So what the rod sees is pressure, not power. When you need to strengthen the rod is when you have high pressure, not power. If you don't believe me, look back and find the one cosworth post and you notice how he talks about cylinder pressure as the tuning limit on a stock block, not power.

So the difference between FI and NA in terms of overall engine tuning is that they get power in different ways. FI gets more power easier by shoving tons of air. With more air you can burn more fuel. With more air and fuel you get bigger booms. This equates to increased pressure in the cylinder, which pushes on the rods, which eventually gets converted to TORQUE, which minus heat losses turns into power@rpm. NA is limited by the amount of oxygen it can get. There is only so much pressure you can develop. An F1 or nascar engine can only develop so much torque/volume, much less than an FI. So what NA focuses on is getting the highest pressure (BMEP/Torque), then not losing it and revving to the sky, which gets you power.

So which is nitrous more similar to? In my eyes, it is not really equal to either, but in terms of engine design, if you want to run nitrous, it needs beefier internals like FI because it increases pressure phenomenally, which is what fails the rods. So if someone asks "Is nitrous FI or NA" and I don't want to go into the effort saying/type the above, I would say FI, when I don't think it's really the same.

So if CSG Mike says there is a 300whp Nitrous "NA" engine out there. Then I would say yes, it needs stronger internals just the same as a 300whp FI engine, since they are probably developing similar torque.

edit: also, N20 is 36% oxygen, not 33%

edit 2: retarded "typo"

edit 3: the 33% nitrous by molarity is more applicable than by mass, so I would take back edit 1, haha

[Andew727]

has anyone else in here cracked open this motor and personally visualized any cons that maybe i should take into account before putting my motor back in? or are we going to continue to flood this thread with meaningless "facts". again the heads are weak, so i beefed up springs, clutch was weak, went with a 6 puck ACT. rods looked chintzy, went with skunk 2 I beams while the motor was out. i also decided to lower compression about a point maybe slightly less with larger head gaskets. anyone with experience building this engine have any other recommendations before i put this bitch back in????????

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by FRS Justin

I'm going to start slow with you. Your first post was awful you didn't even have a clue what you were talking about. How can you say that a 300hp fa N/A that exist in 2013 ran on a dyno with a stock bottom end be the one that's not even put together yet.


Then you obviously don't know the definition of forced didn't educate yourself and made a total fool out of yourself by saying NOS is not F/I
So Einstein explain to all of us why the NHRA and several other racing sanctions list it as F/I


Could it be this:


forced

(fɔːst)
adj1. done because of force; compulsory: forced labour.
2. false or unnatural: a forced smile.
3. due to an emergency or necessity: a forced landing.
4. (General Physics) physics caused by an external agency: a forced vibration; a forced draught.

forcedly adv ˈforcedness n




combined with the fact you increase cylinder o2 content from 21 to 33 percent. You should go by a book instead making embarrassing post




troll exit stage left and take your friends with you

It's not actually 33%. You can't run an engine on pure nitrous. But, you have no experience with it, so you just took some random crap I copy-pasted from google as gospel.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by FRS Justin

N/A lets say the cylinder holds 500 o2 molecules (hypothetically for math purpose)
your turbo or S/C at 20 psi pushes 1000 molecules in the cylinder
and you hit a 150 shot of nos and that puts 1000 molecules in the cylinder


the nos made the same o2 as 20 psi on the turbo and S/C
by a chemical process. that's why the F/I mechanism is not what's important

Someone failed high school chemistry. The nitrous displaces atmospheric air. It doesn't increase the number of molecules in the cylinder.

Here's a great place to start educating yourself. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_laws

[Yoda]

Oh I see this is still going on. We all must be bored...

[BRZoomTX]

Its pretty clear who knows what they're talking about in this thread. Unfortunately the nature of the conversation led this to being a completely useless thread.

Oh, and I literally laughed out loud at the "nos" references. Haven't heard someone say "nos" when discussing nitrous since I left the Mustang community.

I feel like this is Mike on a typical day on this forum:

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYDU--kaOdY"]ydb - youtube[/ame]

[CSG Mike]

I should also add, while we're at it, that I've personally witnessed bent/broken rods on 100% NA, 100% stock engines.

Does that mean stock engines also need rods?

Correlation does not mean causation.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Oh I see this is still going on. We all must be bored...

Pretty much.

I'm at the dyno and flashing takes forever. I wish EcuTek had live tuning

Perhaps we can get a free Motec like all the other free parts on the car /sarcasm

[FRS Justin]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

It's not actually 33%. You can't run an engine on pure nitrous. But, you have no experience with it, so you just took some random crap I copy-pasted from google as gospel.

Ok Mike I know your smarter than me on this so can you please explain how nitrous is not 33% oxygen. My math is: nitrous is made of 2 molecules of nitrogen and 1 molecule of oxygen. So I took 100representing the complete unit and divided it by 3 representing the molecules and got 33.3333333333repeating


please educate me since I failed high school chemistry I want to learn


And if you have time can you please explain if you displace atmospheric air in a cylinder and replace it with nitrous that has more oxygen in it than atmospheric air how It doesn't increase the number of molecules in the cylinder


I'm confused

[shiumai]

Originally Posted by FRS Justin

Ok Mike I know your smarter than me on this so can you please explain how nitrous is not 33% oxygen. My math is: nitrous is made of 2 molecules of nitrogen and 1 molecule of oxygen. So I took 100representing the complete unit and divided it by 3 representing the molecules and got 33.3333333333repeating

I'm confused

the atoms are not the same atomic weight. oxygen is 16, and nitrogen is 14.007. if you take 14.007+14.007+16 = 44.014. then take 16/44.014, you get .364, which is 36.4%.