Video: HKS 86 drift car + first 86/FR-S/BRZ dyno = 170 rwhp!!!

[SUB-FT86]

I have to agree with that guy. I also think it isn't balanced with power and handling. It favors handling more and that's what toyobaru was going for. I don't think a revvy 2.0 liter makes sense in a sports car unless it weighs as much as an elise or lighter. A 2.5l high revver with D/I would've made me more excited. It also seems more fitting for a 2700-2800 lb sports car. If they ever made that engine for the FR-S I wouldn't think twice.

[brewksy]

Originally Posted by catharsis

This car is going to be slow, regardless of what the fan boys say. That matters because the price has to be right on this thing. If they're asking 25k for it, it'll just sit on the lots. Anyone who says power doesn't matter is wrong. I'm not saying that weight doesn't matter either, but ideally you want a balance. This car is not balanced. It needs more power for its weight. It's almost s2k heavy, but 20hp off. So I could go out and buy an s2k right now for cheaper, and get a theoretically better performing car. We'll see what happens though.

You could, but then you'd be comparing an old car with a new car, which makes any rational argument become a yelling match between Autotrader.com research nazis....

From my post on NASIOC - Cars that *are similar in some way* to the BRZ, in order of Power/Weight ratio (cars older than 2011 adjusted for inflation):

Car                  Weight             Cost          HP/Wt ratio   Power
'11 Lotus Elise R    2010               $51845        0.0940         189
'12 Porsche Cayman   2932               $51900        0.0903         265
'95 Mazda RX7        2882               $57702        0.0884         255
'09 Saturn Sky RL    3036               $33524        0.0856         260
'09 S2000            2864               $36771        0.0827         237
'11 Mini JCW         2668               $29100        0.0779         208
'11 Mazda RX8        3065               $26795        0.0756         232
'01 Acura Int Type R 2639               $32121        0.0738         195
'13 Subaru BRZ       2762               $25000+/-     0.0724         200          
'05 Celica GTS       2500               $26748        0.0720         180
'11 Mini Cooper S    2668               $23000        0.0678         181
'12 Miata Touring    2480               $25550        0.0673         167
'00 Impreza 2.5RS    2795               $26201        0.0590         165
'05 Celica GT        2425               $21161        0.0577         140

The BRZ is placed almost perfectly in that continuum of vehicles. The only standouts are the S2K, RX7, Type R, and 2.5RS (way overpriced for the P/W). Mind you, this says nothing about COG/handling/fun so take it with a grain of salt.

[catharsis]

Originally Posted by brewksy

You could, but then you'd be comparing an old car with a new car, which makes any rational argument become a yelling match between Autotrader.com research nazis....

From my post on NASIOC - Cars that *are similar in some way* to the BRZ, in order of Power/Weight ratio (cars older than 2011 adjusted for inflation):

Car                  Weight             Cost          HP/Wt ratio   Power
'11 Lotus Elise R    2010               $51845        0.0940         189
'12 Porsche Cayman   2932               $51900        0.0903         265
'95 Mazda RX7        2882               $57702        0.0884         255
'09 Saturn Sky RL    3036               $33524        0.0856         260
'09 S2000            2864               $36771        0.0827         237
'11 Mini JCW         2668               $29100        0.0779         208
'11 Mazda RX8        3065               $26795        0.0756         232
'01 Acura Int Type R 2639               $32121        0.0738         195
'13 Subaru BRZ       2762               $25000+/-     0.0724         200          
'05 Celica GTS       2500               $26748        0.0720         180
'11 Mini Cooper S    2668               $23000        0.0678         181
'12 Miata Touring    2480               $25550        0.0673         167
'00 Impreza 2.5RS    2795               $26201        0.0590         165
'05 Celica GT        2425               $21161        0.0577         140

The BRZ is placed almost perfectly in that continuum of vehicles. The only standouts are the S2K, RX7, Type R, and 2.5RS (way overpriced for the P/W). Mind you, this says nothing about COG/handling/fun so take it with a grain of salt.

I'm curious why cars like the mustang, ms3, or even the wrx/sti/evo are not included?

[86'd]

Originally Posted by brewksy

You could, but then you'd be comparing an old car with a new car, which makes any rational argument become a yelling match between Autotrader.com research nazis....

From my post on NASIOC - Cars that *are similar in some way* to the BRZ, in order of Power/Weight ratio (cars older than 2011 adjusted for inflation):


The BRZ is placed almost perfectly in that continuum of vehicles. The only standouts are the S2K, RX7, Type R, and 2.5RS (way overpriced for the P/W). Mind you, this says nothing about COG/handling/fun so take it with a grain of salt.

Research nazi here:

You left out the '11 WRX @ .083.



Also the Civic SI, Mustang V6 and New Genesis . . .

The prices of those cars new are in the Mid 20's. Also used 335i's are around the Upper-Mid 20's as well.

The FR-S/BRZ really needs a low price to stand out.

There's a lot of competition out there.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by catharsis

I'm curious why cars like the mustang, ms3, or even the wrx/sti/evo are not included?

MS3 - 3281LB
Mustang - 3605lb
STi - 3384lb
WRX - 3208LB
EvoX - 3510lb

you cannot compare these cars to some thing that is around 2700

an EVO X is you in your FT86 with FOUR of your mates.. (one in the trunk)

you really have to take your car to the track to understand what kind of an effect a ~500lb weight advantage has on your laptimes compared to 100hp of power difference.

[WingsofWar]

Adding supplementary content to dyno charters.

[SUB-FT86]

I hate that torque dip after 3200 rpms. It needs to be flat.

[brewksy]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

you really have to take your car to the track to understand what kind of an effect a ~500lb weight advantage has on your laptimes compared to 100hp of power difference.

This. And you don't need to take your car to the track to notice these differences, just try some spirited driving around a corner and it will become apparent where weight comes into effect. I chose cars with somewhat similar weights that fit into the small-coupe or small-sedan category. It's not just a price comparo.

[Matador]

Let me guess... First page awesome, then 6 pages of pissing and moaning that it will be "slow" down the drag strip?

Anybody care to point me to any worthwhile posts, cause I'd had it reading through all that kind of bullshit.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

Let me guess... First page awesome, then 6 pages of pissing and moaning that it will be "slow" down the drag strip?

Anybody care to point me to any worthwhile posts, cause I'd had it reading through all that kind of bullshit.

nope, mostly uneducated comments from all sides and the few of us trying to hammer it all into line

futile task but i'm so excited for this car that i feel like wasting my time

[TylerLieberman]

Originally Posted by DanPO

You know.... I have really enjoyed reading this but we are forgetting what this car is REALLY about. Not the specs on the page. None of us are going to know anything about this car until we sit in it and experience it ourselves. I haven't seen a bad review or bad comment about this car yet from anyone who has driven the car. So... with that being said let's not rule out that Hp or Tq is good enough for the car. It wasn't made to look good on paper!!! It is that garage queen where on a Saturday when: Your wife is yelling at you that you didn't rinse the dishes before putting them in the dishwasher, you didn't perform good enough at your job that week and your kid is sick! You need an escape! You get in your FR-S/BRZ that is modded to your hearts desire and you go drift around that big corner next to your house because you know that no one else is watching you (and there are no cops).

Let's not forget that this car is about the experience of pure joy and freedom and not about the paper spec. However, if there was an STI version that comes out with 300+ of turbo charged hp/tq even at $40K I would buy it...because I could pull up to the typical 50 year old in his corvette or porche and blow him away. That is pure joy too.

Wait....wha?????

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

I hate that torque dip after 3200 rpms. It needs to be flat.

SUB-FT86, you can easily get 160lb-ft (at the crank, no drivetrain, relatively constant at low speeds) with a low rpm optimized cam I think...maybe that's something you should look into. This car essentially has a racing cam. The low rpm torque sucks, but fuel economy will be pretty good because of it. Can't buy a sports car and expect the engine to be tuned for low rpm, that's called a truck/SUV :P The beauty of compromise: sometimes you get something good out of it as a side effect.

Matador, may I direct you to the Engine Tech thread?

[WingsofWar]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

I hate that torque dip after 3200 rpms. It needs to be flat.

yeah...awkward torque dip at 3000rpms-4500rpms...i hope that 1500rpm spread can be smoothened out with tuning.

but like what you guys have charted and plugged in (spaceywilly). That low rpm torque band is nice.

[WingsofWar]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

SUB-FT86, you can easily get 160lb-ft (at the crank, no drivetrain, relatively constant at low speeds) with a low rpm optimized cam I think...maybe that's something you should look into. This car essentially has a racing cam. The low rpm torque sucks, but fuel economy will be pretty good because of it. Can't buy a sports car and expect the engine to be tuned for low rpm, that's called a truck/SUV :P The beauty of compromise: sometimes you get something good out of it as a side effect.

Matador, may I direct you to the Engine Tech thread?

unless you have a sports car with a truck motor in it....eg FordGT, 240sx. early peak torque for days.

also...racing cam.....in this car?.....getting est. 35mpg? hmmm maybe im reading your post wrong..im getting conflicting messages here..especially with that 1500rpm dipped spread (3000-4500).