Anybody here getting that greasy "$27k" feeling?

[zigzagz94]

Originally Posted by NickDude84

i want an exciting car two doors that wont break the bank in the 25-30k range. this car looks awesome and i have been following it since the first concept car. i hope this isnt a flop but i do not want to get into a 27k car with only 170hp for that i would buy the new tc with 180hp six speed for 20k.

Originally Posted by Neutral_Eyes

I think he's just disappointed with the FT-86's projected power figures without taking into acount (or ignoring) the weight and/or its driving dynamics. My Miata has only 115whp, but it's still a lot more fun, and IMO rewarding to drive, than a new Mustang V6. While it certainly isn't as fast, it definitely feels that way. It's difficult to put a number or figure to. This car doesn't need oodles of power to be relevant or competitive at a $27k price point.

He already drives an 06 Tc so if he is seriously considering another 180hp FWD car over a significantly lighter 170-200hp RWD coupe he has totally missed the point of this vehicle.

He's even willing to jump up in price to 25-30k (there are a ton of good options at that price point) but still opt for a FWD car with 10 more hp just because it's at 20k? I don't understand that line of thinking. Too much fixation on the hp numbers and not enough on the hp/weight ratio plus the added driving dynamics of RWD for sporting purposes.

The FR-S will not be $10k more than a Tc because that would be suicide for Scion. At the most you will be looking at a $5k premium for a loaded model (and all of them will be loaded cuz scion only does monospec).

The question then is do you want to pay more for the Lighter RWD sportscar or save the money and continue on with the newer version of your trusty FWD Tc.

For me that's an easy decision but, for you maybe not so much.

[NickDude84]

U guys are missing my point. The point is that at 27k their are alot of competitors at that price range. This car may be awesome and maybe I am thinking it will be something that it's not. If it's supposed to be a miata or mini fighter I really won't be interested in it at that price range. If it's a gc 3.8 370z fighter it would be awesome that's what I thought it would be. W/e we really do not know what it's going to be and at this point we are all speculating IMHO I would hope it be like an rx7

[Neutral_Eyes]

It's not that we're missing your point, it's that it's a silly way to look for a car you're supposedly interested in. You're looking at HP numbers and price, and nothing else. You're going to be sorely disappointed if you're expecting the FT-86 to compete with the GC or the 370Z in magazine tests - at least in horsepower relevant tests.

[U2B]8F7nQ6GGdms[/U2B]

Does this video make sense to you? If not, just go grab another Camaro SS or Mustang GT and be on your way. But take note of how high the MX-5 finished in this comparison (edit: 3rd place, behind the Cayman and R8) against some great competition, and you might begin to understand the potential behind the FT-86, and why a $27k sticker price (not that I think it'll be that high) could be warranted.

[zigzagz94]

Originally Posted by NickDude84

and maybe I am thinking it will be something that it's not.

If it's supposed to be a miata or mini fighter I really won't be interested in it at that price range.

If it's a gc 3.8 370z fighter it would be awesome that's what I thought it would be.

You are

It will be but at $25k

It was never intended to be that (it was always somewhere in between a hardtop miata and a S2k but with backseats)

Do some more research on this forum about the car because it sounds like you really don't want this type of vehicle and you are going to be very disappointed with the final production stats.

Since you say that you would be willing to pay 25-30k may I suggest you check out a 370Z because that seems to be the type of vehicle you are looking for. Just be sure to invest in the NISMO oil cooler if you plan to do any spirited driving and don't want your car going into limp mode immediately due to high oil temps.

[82mm 4g63]

Originally Posted by madfast

i love turbos as much as the next guy, but a properly tuned NA engine just FEELS better than a turbo. you just physically cannot get the flat tq curve of a NA engine with a turbo. SC? yes i'd love to see a factory SC kit. Turbo? no, its not that kinda car...

We have totally different opinions when it comes to what type of engine feels better. N/A engines have never done anything for me. I have friends who are hardcore all motor Mustang and Vette guys pushing out oodles of power and I wouldn't trade one of those for either of my turbocharged cars. The fun factor isn't even comparable. But again, it's entirely your/my opinion. :happy0180:

Originally Posted by Random_Art

Driving dynamics are certainly more fun on twisty roads than gobs of power that you can't fully utilize. Bragging about HP figures is mostly for people who enjoy drag racing. But for most of the other forms of performance driving that don't involve going in a straight line, people forget about all the secondary stresses that come with more power. A high horsepower car is generally heavier (unless you have the kind of money for a carbon fiber super car, but if that's the case, why look at the FR-S at all?) due to bigger engines and all the other stuff that comes with it to up the power- turbos, superchargers, bigger radiators. These all add weight. And the faster you go, with all that additional weight, the harder the brakes and tires have to work to slow you down again. This stresses these components more than on a lighter car that's probably not going quite as fast. This additional stress wears the parts out faster, so you're more likely to see brake fade setting in sooner on something like a Mustang than on a Miata.

What? lol. If you're really that concerned with wearing out parts because of the extra weight a car may have you should probably get a motorcycle. Sure bigger engines weigh more than smaller ones, turbocharged engines weigh more than its N/A version, but...they're more powerful. More power = better lb/hp ratio. I'll take my bone stock RX7 with it's 10.9 lb/hp over a new Miata with it's 14.3 lb/hp ratio any day.

You don't have to spend oodles of money on a carbon fiber super car to have high power output while remaining light weight. My car is almost exactly the same weight right now as it was when it rolled off the show room floor. The only difference being, it has 600whp around town versus the 255 it had new. I promise it is a hell of a lot more fun to drive now, than it was when I first bought it.

Originally Posted by Neutral_Eyes

It's not that we're missing your point, it's that it's a silly way to look for a car you're supposedly interested in. You're looking at HP numbers and price, and nothing else. You're going to be sorely disappointed if you're expecting the FT-86 to compete with the GC or the 370Z in magazine tests - at least in horsepower relevant tests.

[U2B]8F7nQ6GGdms[/U2B]

Does this video make sense to you? If not, just go grab another Camaro SS or Mustang GT and be on your way. But take note of how high the MX-5 finished in this comparison (edit: 3rd place, behind the Cayman and R8) against some great competition, and you might begin to understand the potential behind the FT-86, and why a $27k sticker price (not that I think it'll be that high) could be warranted.

Sorry, but that video doesn't make sense to me. When I think drivers cars I definitely don't think of a 4300# Cadillac or a 4400# Jaguar sedan. Hell I don't even think of a Mustang or Camaro. They're honestly going to test a 135i over an M3? What can the 370Z do that a GTR can't? When I think of a drivers car, I think of Lotus, GTRs, RX7/8, Evo/STi, Miata and of course Ferrari, Lambo, and Porsche. (I love the Cayman, but how do you not throw in a 911? )

Originally Posted by Neutral_Eyes

I think he's just disappointed with the FT-86's projected power figures without taking into acount (or ignoring) the weight and/or its driving dynamics. My Miata has only 115whp, but it's still a lot more fun, and IMO rewarding to drive, than a new Mustang V6. While it certainly isn't as fast, it definitely feels that way. It's difficult to put a number or figure to. This car doesn't need oodles of power to be relevant or competitive at a $27k price point.

Well maybe, but it needs a hell of a lot more than just saying it's "fun to drive". My mom has fun driving her new 2012 Hyundai Accent.

[Dimman]

^ Your FD is not a fair comparison when talking about weight. Keep in mind how bloated cars have become, and what we're anticipating for the FT86 (I want 2600 lbs max). But wasn't the FD a touch over 2800lbs stock? So, sadly, things have changed. (A 'fat pig heavy' Mk3 Supra weighs about as much as the all carbon fiber Lexus LFA. No joke.)

It's not only about power to weight. That is the 'going' part of driving. There are also 'stopping' and 'turning'. Colin Chapman of Lotus pointed out that, all things being equal, a 200 hp 2000lbs car will out-perform a 400 hp 4000lbs car on the average track. The 400 hp car will only have an advantage in top speed due to hp/drag.

[ryun84]

^ You're getting worked up over speculation. Last time I checked, nobody important said it was going to be starting at $27K. You said so yourself, "IF this car comes in at 27K..." You capped the word that should be the focus of that statement. Also, it's a bit early to write this car off by saying "The car will NOT be any more fun than a Miata or Cooper S..." Once again, that's speculation/opinion unless you happened to have spoken with some test drivers. Let's just relax and enjoy the painful wait until official news is released, yes?

[ryun84]

Wow. Pardon me for trying to be optimistic.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Dimman

^ Your FD is not a fair comparison when talking about weight. Keep in mind how bloated cars have become, and what we're anticipating for the FT86 (I want 2600 lbs max). But wasn't the FD a touch over 2800lbs stock? So, sadly, things have changed. (A 'fat pig heavy' Mk3 Supra weighs about as much as the all carbon fiber Lexus LFA. No joke.)

It's not only about power to weight. That is the 'going' part of driving. There are also 'stopping' and 'turning'. Colin Chapman of Lotus pointed out that, all things being equal, a 200 hp 2000lbs car will out-perform a 400 hp 4000lbs car on the average track. The 400 hp car will only have an advantage in top speed due to hp/drag.

mmm, that'd be A mk4, didn't the Mk3 weigh like 3700lbs?

[Neutral_Eyes]

Originally Posted by Driftster

Now if it gets NORTH of 25k..Which it will if it starts anywhere around 24,000 once you add the spoiler, a decent pair of wheels and tires, and an interior that doesn't look like it came off of a 1980's rental Ford...

It's going to be right in the line of fire for a cornucopia of performance automobiles that are RWD and will spank this car around the world and back..

From the 332HP 370z which is a GREAT drivers car..
to the 402HP Mustang 5.0 which is a wonderful platform to build from
the Camaro SS the genesis...all wonderful cars that are smack dab in the price range of a "lightly" loaded FT86 if it comes in anywhere around 27k.....

This car NEEDS to up the power, or drop the price.

370Z - $31,450 base, $34,480 sport (you'll probably want the sport)
Mustang GT - $30,105 base, $34,105 premium
Camaro SS - $31,070 1SS, $34,420 2SS
GC3.8 - $26,750 R-Spec, $29,750-$30,750 GT or Track

For argument's sake, an MX-5 Touring PRHT with a paltry 167HP starts at $27,150. How does it still manage to sell? I guess I'm just not seeing where the "27 grand!?! Ridiculous, I might as well spend 32 grand!!" is coming from.

[Neutral_Eyes]

I priced the cars YOU mentioned, both base and popular trim levels.

I picked the PRHT because it's the closest the Miata comes to a hard top like the FT-86. It might start at $23k, but just like you'll want the sport in the 370Z, you'll want the 6 speed in the MX-5, which starts at more like $25.5k.

I didn't bother pricing the Genesis 2.0T because it's a stupid car - underpowered for all the fat it's carrying around.

[madfast]

the miata would also require the suspension package with bilsteins and lsd to match the FT's already confirmed lsd. and the FT spy shots show what appears to be bilsteins but thats just speculation thus far... but still, it shows that they mean business...

[enc0re]

Originally Posted by Neutral_Eyes

370Z - $31,450 base, $34,480 sport (you'll probably want the sport)
Mustang GT - $30,105 base, $34,105 premium
Camaro SS - $31,070 1SS, $34,420 2SS
GC3.8 - $26,750 R-Spec, $29,750-$30,750 GT or Track

For argument's sake, an MX-5 Touring PRHT with a paltry 167HP starts at $27,150. How does it still manage to sell? I guess I'm just not seeing where the "27 grand!?! Ridiculous, I might as well spend 32 grand!!" is coming from.

For my money, I'd buy the MX-5 PHRT out of that line up.

[Neutral_Eyes]

Originally Posted by madfast

the miata would also require the suspension package with bilsteins and lsd to match the FT's already confirmed lsd. and the FT spy shots show what appears to be bilsteins but thats just speculation thus far... but still, it shows that they mean business...

So a soft top 6 speed with the Bilsteins comes to $26,745 incl. destination. I'd love for the FT to come with Bilsteins as well, could you point me in the direction of those spy shots if you have them handy?

Compared with that MX-5, the FT gains: a roof, 2~ish seats, lower CoG, more power and loses... some lightness and double wishbones up front? But they're planning to price it lower? Sounds like a win to me. Optioned out, a PRHT MX-5 can eclipse $30k. If you consider that, $27k for an FT might be quite the deal, and below $25k - a steal.

"But Mustangs still beat me!"