STX Rules and Setup Questions

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by 2superblus

When/where did this discovery come to light?

About six months ago ~40 pages earlier in this thread or another similar thread in the suspension section as someone found details on the special bushing/bearing SPC uses via a marketing brochure. At least that's when I first saw it.

Honestly it doesn't matter, if you're only running locally nobody should give a fuck but if you're going for a championship, nationals, contingency money etc. it's a simple protest to screw you over from a competitor who wants it bad enough. Autocross should be fun and casual but spending the time to avoid that hassle is one of the less intensive things you have to do to be competitive.

imo if you haven't bought one yet, as mentioned above you're looking at nearly $300 to make the SPC's legal, Racer-X was on sale for $400 a few months back and easier adjustment that I have more confidence in repeatability.

[GeorgeJFrick]

Originally Posted by nisti

It was recently discovered that the sealed bushing SPC uses in their arms contain more metal than oem.
So, technically, not legal.

Thank you.

Originally Posted by jbailey8748

Ok. Now that we are beating this horse to death. Whitelines new rlca is an spc rlca with STX legal bushings. If you need to make the spc ones legal and spc can't help you get there whitelines can.

Counter Space Garage lists an illegal STX lower control arm as legal. Those newer to the sport may turn to this thread for information, or run an illegal LCA that ends up getting a talented
driver disqualified. I am not that driver. But s/he exists. There is nothing wrong with asking what could be considered the most populat vendor account on the site to clarify their position. While @CSG Mike has gotten back to me. He hasn't followed up in regards to their LCA or a recommended LCA.

In a thread about STX setup, the desire is to settle on a list of available and legal LCAs.

Originally Posted by strat61caster

About six months ago ~40 pages earlier in this thread or another similar thread in the suspension section as someone found details on the special bushing/bearing SPC uses via a marketing brochure.
At least that's when I first saw it.

Honestly it doesn't matter, if you're only running locally nobody should give a fuck but if you're going for a championship, nationals, contingency money etc. it's a simple protest to screw you over from a competitor who wants it bad enough. Autocross should be fun and casual but spending the time to avoid that hassle is one of the less intensive things you have to do to be competitive.

imo if you haven't bought one yet, as mentioned above you're looking at nearly $300 to make the SPC's legal, Racer-X was on sale for $400 a few months back and easier adjustment that I have more confidence in repeatability.

To show up with the SPC would be fine, except I know they aren't legal from discussions here. It would be un-sportsman like and misconduct to
show up with the SPC and be like "CSG says they're legal!".

As someone who has worked to be part of this community and not just some noob in the way, I originally thought I was being helpful and contributing. I mean this in no offense; but the general consensus here seems to be "Why are we still talking about this?". I'm sad about that; isn't this a setup and question thread? Isn't this highly technical and competitive? Isn't that what is fun? Isn't it fantastic that I show up, and try to beat 2superblus, scoobysouth, cjd, and Peter at their own game?

tldr; My bad. I was trying to fit in. I'll leave it alone.

[Kostamojen]

SCCA says whats legal and not legal, not anyone else.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by GeorgeJFrick

tldr; My bad. I was trying to fit in. I'll leave it alone.

You're fine, it's worth pointing out CSG's description is outdated. Vendors drop the ball sometimes, it happens. It would be interesting to see what a vendor would say if you came back a year later, "Hey this part you sold me as legal isn't anymore!" In my past dealings (not any 86 parts) the vendor responds with "tough noogies, you're the car owner, you're responsible, it was legal at the time, rules change" and he's right, it's each competitors responsibility to ensure their cars are legal.

My first sentence telling you when this was discovered, was literally answering the question, I didn't mean any condescension.

My point was that just because a rule exists and outlaws a part, does not mean that the part creates any sort of advantage. Rules are broad and simple so they are easily applied and understood, rarely are they written to intelligently create a level playing field. Just head on over to the CS thread where they're bemoaning that the BRZ is uncompetitive because the FRS can use TRD springs and the Subaru can't.

IMO it's the spirit that counts, it's autocross, not NASCAR or F1. Seriously, I'd bet $5 you could win a national championship running it this year and nobody would care. I wouldn't be surprised if it had already happened at a big event or a local champ was won on this illegal bushing. It would take one spiteful **** to toss you out because of two control arm bushings.

It's weird, that rule was designed to keep costs down and ST class cars streetable, and in this scenario it eliminated the most cost effective rear camber solution forcing competitors to spend more money to change that bushing or buy more expensive options. If it outlawed some super fancy high end part that actually created a performance advantage for someone who can outspend the competition it would make sense.

That's racin' sometimes, you're fitting in just fine.

[DocWalt]

I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't care about a little thing here and there, but if you've got a bunch of little things or you've got a massive margin on the field I'm sure anyone would throw paper.

FWIW I'm not very interested in doing national events because I have a couple "illegal" parts on the car that I have zero interest in removing but they offer me exactly zero competitive edge. TRD rear spoiler (not legal even on an FR-S) and arguably the third brake light I have isn't legal either (though it could be argued under C&C). What's silly is that someone would throw paper over that stuff and likely never care about the SPC arms.

[renfield90]

Having more metal in a bushing than OEM is very specifically prohibited and is a definite advantage.

If you run with such a bushing you are illegal. Period. There isn't a gray zone here. If you're at a local, I don't care. If you show up at a national level competition and I see it, I'll warn you to fix it before nationals. If I see you at nationals with it and there's a trophy position on the line, I'll throw paper. Y'all have five months and change to get your cars legal, make it happen.

This isn't spiteful bullshit about protesting because someone debadged or removed their floormats or removed the styrofoam tool trays in the trunk. This is explicitly outlawed.

[GeorgeJFrick]

Originally Posted by DocWalt

I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't care about a little thing here and there, but if you've got a bunch of little things or you've got a massive margin on the field I'm sure anyone would throw paper.

FWIW I'm not very interested in doing national events because I have a couple "illegal" parts on the car that I have zero interest in removing but they offer me exactly zero competitive edge. TRD rear spoiler (not legal even on an FR-S) and arguably the third brake light I have isn't legal either (though it could be argued under C&C). What's silly is that someone would throw paper over that stuff and likely never care about the SPC arms.

This is funny. I have that spoiler sitting in the box in my living room. To install or not to install. No advantage, but I became aware it was illegal after buying it.

[Kostamojen]

Originally Posted by GeorgeJFrick

This is funny. I have that spoiler sitting in the box in my living room. To install or not to install. No advantage, but I became aware it was illegal after buying it.

Whats sad is that some of the exterior mods I have now make me ST-X illegal, but everything else that actually matters is still 100% ST-X... I'd have to rip a bunch of stuff off my car to run a real event now.

[DocWalt]

Originally Posted by renfield90

Having more metal in a bushing than OEM is very specifically prohibited and is a definite advantage.

If you run with such a bushing you are illegal. Period. There isn't a gray zone here. If you're at a local, I don't care. If you show up at a national level competition and I see it, I'll warn you to fix it before nationals. If I see you at nationals with it and there's a trophy position on the line, I'll throw paper. Y'all have five months and change to get your cars legal, make it happen.

This isn't spiteful bullshit about protesting because someone debadged or removed their floormats or removed the styrofoam tool trays in the trunk. This is explicitly outlawed.

And this shit is why SPC dun goofed... Guess it's a good thing I don't plan on going to any national events.

It's a different conversation, but the whole "trophy" thing in autocross is hilarious. woohoo a trophy for 13th

[finch1750]

I could never run nats cuz I have a BRZ spoiler on my FRS

[Silverspeed]

Originally Posted by renfield90

Having more metal in a bushing than OEM is very specifically prohibited and is a definite advantage.

If you run with such a bushing you are illegal. Period. There isn't a gray zone here. If you're at a local, I don't care. If you show up at a national level competition and I see it, I'll warn you to fix it before nationals. If I see you at nationals with it and there's a trophy position on the line, I'll throw paper. Y'all have five months and change to get your cars legal, make it happen.

This isn't spiteful bullshit about protesting because someone debadged or removed their floormats or removed the styrofoam tool trays in the trunk. This is explicitly outlawed.

I agree that a spherical joint is against the rules. No questions asked. But if you really think there is a performance advantage between the stock SPC bushing/joint/bearing and this http://www.frsport.com/DIF-10594-Str..._p_445911.html you're kidding yourself. Lewis Hamilton couldn't tell the difference from behind the wheel and it sure as hell won't add up to a time difference. It may be more durable and probably cheaper and maybe add some NVH, but time difference? Not a chance.

The messed up thing is that something like this http://racerxfabrication.com/frs-brz...r-control-arms is legal. And IMO you couldn't tell the difference between the SPC and this Racer-X part either. The only reason to change the arms is for the adjustability, and or maybe some flex reduction in the case of a billet arm, not the superior performance of the bushing/bearing or whatever. I'd put the stock bushings back in my SPC arms to be legal if they'd fit...

I do want to clarify again that I cannot disagree that it is against the rules. But if I'm out of the trophy spot and the guy in front of me has the stock SPC arms, I'm not throwing paper.... He (or she) didn't beat me because of what connects the lower control arms to the car.

[e1_griego]

Originally Posted by Kostamojen

Whats sad is that some of the exterior mods I have now make me ST-X illegal, but everything else that actually matters is still 100% ST-X... I'd have to rip a bunch of stuff off my car to run a real event now.

I actually bought a 2nd spoilerless trunk lid for this very reason.

Rest of the car is legal except for a non-factory wing (obviously a huge aero advantage!!).

I'll get to swapping the trunk eventually but I like the way it looks as is.

[drewbot]

Originally Posted by finch1750

I could never run nats cuz I have a BRZ spoiler on my FRS

Don't forget the shark fin add on the 13-14. Illegal AF

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[finch1750]

Originally Posted by drewbot

Don't forget the shark fin add on the 13-14. Illegal AF

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Lmao. Shit. I have a Perrin shorty antenna. Sheds weight so orob need to swap the stock one back on