Um guys? Scion's Own FT86 Coming to New York Show Next month?

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Mr.Jay

Oh I'm aware I was just saying you have to admit Toyota givin the Tc to those guys and getting records broken under the Scion name was a well played move at tryin to give the Tc some street cred

This is kind of my point about Scion. Instead of building a good car, they just bought the names and skills of a bunch of good teams to break records, compete well, etc... in cars totally unrelated to what were being sold in Scion dealerships.

[xantonin]

Did someone say drift tC?

[Mr.Jay]

Originally Posted by xantonin

Did someone say drift tC?

Its not a Tc its a Tc body

you can tell tanner is not impressed hahaha

[Exage]

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

Man if I had a dollar for every time someone said something about the engine being shared with the Camry. Guess that makes it a Camry, Rav4, and Corolla XRS all at the same time because they share a 2az-FE. Oh but wait, it has the same braking system as the Celica GTS....guess that makes it a Celica too.

I respect the fact that you're working with the FE engine. It's just the fact that the majority of Toyotas that the tuning market has worked with were/are GE, GZE (supercharged), and GTE (turbocharged) wide angle heads and typically co-developed with Yamaha. (I'm sure you know this though...)

Therefore you can see why peoples scepticism when they ask you why on earth you're tuning a FE engine that's also found in the Camry. And although I understand the reasons for Toyotas discontinuation of the GE in the sport compact and tuning market, I (like most enthusiasts) don't support their decision and wish they had worked around it. Simply put, no one would bug you if Toyota had produced a 2AZ-GE that put out 210bhp stock and was shared with the 4 cylinder Camry SE and XRS models.

[Zaku]

Originally Posted by Mr.Jay

Its not a Tc its a Tc body

you can tell tanner is not impressed hahaha

"So, in the beginning, they explain how they took all the original crappy Scion parts, threw those away, replaced them with parts from cars, which are actually cool... In hope of creating a cool Scion... A paradox?"

I saw this in a comment and it pretty much hits the spot. and yeah.. Tanner isn't thrilled at all.

[xantonin]

Originally Posted by Exage

And although I understand the reasons for Toyotas discontinuation of the GE in the sport compact and tuning market, I (like most enthusiasts) don't support their decision and wish they had worked around it.

Why did they discontinue their support of the GE engines?

Can't be mileage. My 2ZZ-GE gets 31 MPG an average, and I drive like an asshole.

[Exage]

Originally Posted by xantonin

Why did they discontinue their support of the GE engines?

Can't be mileage. My 2ZZ-GE gets 31 MPG an average, and I drive like an asshole.

Due to the changes on how engine power, gas consumption, and emissions (the last one particularly in Europe) are currently measured and regulated. Along with a major decrease in North American Celica GT-S sales after 2003. Demand of high output naturally aspirated engines had fallen so dramatically for Toyota that starting around 2004 they began mulling around whether or not to continue competing with Honda and the RSX/S (and later Si).

Why? Simply put: the 2ZZ-GE (as great as it is) was a little too small (1.8L) and wasn't quite as technologically advance as the K20 series (which had DOHC VTEC which has cam-phasing on both camshafts and put out greater gas milage). And lets not even get into the aftermarket scene of the K20...

You will see however, Toyota had anticipated the market correctly and got out early. The RX-8 simply doesn't sell anymore and was even discontinued in europe due to emissions. Honda in North America has discontinued the NSX and the S2000. The 2012 Civic Si is going to have the K24 at ~200bhp from the Acura TSX. A 2.0L high rev to 2.4L lower rev + torque, It reminds me of Celica to tC (or in my eyes 9th Gen XRS to 10th Gen XRS).

There are many factors you can consider, this is just my reasoning (so take it as you will). I'm sure no-one but the execs at Toyota has the 100% correct and real answer for you.

[Dimman]

VVTL-i is the same as iVTEC.

I think it was a cost issue as only the 2ZZGE had the VVTL-i as far as I know. And it used some pretty fancy metallurgy in the block and head too, I believe.

[Garage1217]

I am both happy and worried it is coming out as a scion. Being a multiple scion owner, the things that are great are as follows...
- Pure price rocks. Makes car buying no hassle / no worries / no BS. I have purchased two cars this way, my old tC and my daily driver xD. I pretty much knew the price before I walked into the dealership. For the xD I just called and told my friend that is a dealer what I wanted and it arrived a few weeks later. Never stepped into the dealership or delt with a butthole car salesman. Just walked in, signed the papers, he handed me the keys and away I went.
- Lots of aftermarket support. I think more scions have had aftermarket turbo systems added than any car in history *LOL*
- Lots of company support. Scion takes care of it's customers like no other company on the planet, that is why so many other car clubs and car owners hated us at shows, scion always paid for lavish booths filled with food, music, prizes and all sorts of stuff. Always air conditioned with couches, chicks and so forth *LOL* Hell they flew 340 of us out to miami for a private bash and had that rapper guy ludicrous play at a private gig for us when they released the xD and xB2. I arrived at the paid for hotel and had a $100 bill under my door to cover parking haha! Scion knows how to party and take care of it's people.

Now the bad...
- tons of WAY overpriced dealer add on crap they try to get you to buy. Like 5 different crappy sounding radios, 20 versions of tail lights and a couple of rims they will charge $2000 for because they stuck a TRD sticker on them.
- Judging by past history of scion... the car will be pretty weak in the motor department. Yes I have followed every thread in about every forum on this car as I want one but I highly doubt the motor scion goes with will be anything outstanding. If it breaks 220hp, I would be in SHOCK, but happy at the same time. I really hope they break the mold with this car release. I would be happy to pay decent coin for a stellar out of the box car.


If scion brings it to the show, it will most likely have a 5axis body kit on it and some wide, low offset rims to make it appeal to the tuner crowd. This is what they have done with every car they have built. So that is my best guess.

I really want to see the interior, it is going to make or break this car for me. The last version with zippers on the dash had the most horrendous doors, dash and gauge cluster... I was just sick looking at it. Nothing I would ever own. Guess time to keep the fingers crossed.


Oh... and by the way. The little camry motor (2az) everyone seems to whine and complain about does wonderful under modest boost (when stock) and is very reliable / a good design even for an FE head. Numbers from that motor under positive manifold pressure tell the whole story. They generally can spank a lot of cars running just 8-10 psi with a decent turbo and even a log manifold. And the ant10 chassis is actually not bad itself with just a little work. For sure it was not a performance oriented car from the factory, it listed like a ship a sea on the corners and was peppy at best in the power department so not arguing there *LOL* But a few mods made it 10x the car it should have been.

Also the tC "last version as I am sooo not a fan of the current" was a lot of car for the money. It featured a lot of tech that was only found on later lexus models. Basically scion used us as test rats for the first knee airbags, side curtain airbags and all glass roof system which they later put into the lexus models *LOL* Once they got a lot of the bugs worked out in 06 and 07+, it was a really nice cruiser stock.

[Exage]

Originally Posted by Dimman

VVTL-i is the same as iVTEC.

I think it was a cost issue as only the 2ZZGE had the VVTL-i as far as I know. And it used some pretty fancy metallurgy in the block and head too, I believe.

Sorry I should have specified the i-VTEC in my previous post.

I'll spare you the million words of technical talk I have and say that while they are similar they are also different. The K20A2/Z1/Z3 i-VTEC have cam-phase on both intake and exhaust cam shafts, while VVTL-i only has it on the intake cam shaft. Their cam-shift is also similar but very different in execution.

You're correct, Toyota incorporated something called MMC (Metal Matrix Composite) on the cylinder walls, for reducing friction and wear on the 2ZZ-GE.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Exage

Sorry I should have specified the i-VTEC in my previous post.

I'll spare you the million words of technical talk I have and say that while they are similar they are also different. The K20A2/Z1/Z3 i-VTEC have cam-phase on both intake and exhaust cam shafts, while VVTL-i only has it on the intake cam shaft. Their cam-shift is also similar but very different in execution.

You're correct, Toyota incorporated something called MMC (Metal Matrix Composite) on the cylinder walls, for reducing friction and wear on the 2ZZ-GE.

That's more the application than the technology. (I actually assumed that they had it on both though.) Power was good, torque delivery was pretty flat judging by the dyno sheet that was posted. Economy was good. I can't see any problem besides cost. A shame. It really needed to go in the MR-S.

I think there was some policy shift somewhere that said 'We're done with performance. Get rid of these 2ZZGEs in any way you can, Corollas, Matrix, Pontiac, Lotus, I don't care just get rid of them. They are too expensive and aren't green enough.'

It's these decisions, plus the whole Scion thing that make me really nervous about what's going to happen with the FT86. And I have a high degree of Toyota fanboism...

Edit: I also heard that they don't have conventional pressed-in valve seats, but the aluminum maybe has some of that MMC there instead?

[Toyota4Life]

Where did the resident Toyota employee go??? He finally get sick of being called out for his BS?

[TRDMAN]

Damn I really just want a car thats fun to drive. Handles like a go cart and sounds good when winding it out. As I get a little older Id rather have something that gets decent mileage. as opposed to a couple years ago when I dreamed of driving around a 600WHP blown mustang.. Practical and fun is what I want now. But I will definitely mod it I just dont plan on going crazy and creating something that gets 10 mpg or is unstreetable

[Exage]

Originally Posted by Dimman

That's more the application than the technology. (I actually assumed that they had it on both though.) Power was good, torque delivery was pretty flat judging by the dyno sheet that was posted. Economy was good. I can't see any problem besides cost. A shame. It really needed to go in the MR-S.

I think there was some policy shift somewhere that said 'We're done with performance. Get rid of these 2ZZGEs in any way you can, Corollas, Matrix, Pontiac, Lotus, I don't care just get rid of them. They are too expensive and aren't green enough.'

It's these decisions, plus the whole Scion thing that make me really nervous about what's going to happen with the FT86. And I have a high degree of Toyota fanboism...

Edit: I also heard that they don't have conventional pressed-in valve seats, but the aluminum maybe has some of that MMC there instead?

To each his own, but the 2ZZ is 2 years older by introduction.

Your second paragraph made me smile. It's a little know rumour that there are supposedly only 6619 Corolla XRS produced between 2005 and 2006. No demand? No engine? or both??? hmmmmm

I haven't heard of MMC being used on the head or anything odd about the valve seat. My quick search didn't reveal anything about it either. Perhaps I'll let you know if I ever take the head off...