Video: HKS 86 drift car + first 86/FR-S/BRZ dyno = 170 rwhp!!!

[Spaceywilly]

Here's my latest attempt at the dyno chart




I think you can ignore the numbers on these charts since it is not very scientific, but the important thing (to me anyways) is the shape of the torque curve. It looks like there is plenty of torque available from fairly low rpms, which should translate into a very driveable car.

Here is another one with the RPMs shifted up by 1000 (based on WoW's image on previous page)



This one is impossible since we know that they shift at 7500, so I think the reality is somewhere in between these two.

[SUB-FT86]

I wish this car was closer to 2500 lbs.

[wcbjr]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

I wish this car was closer to 2500 lbs.

I wish mine as made of helium and I had to attach weights to keep it on the ground.

[Dragonitti]

I called 2800lbs a long time ago, so I'm not shocked that it is closer to that than 2600lbs.

[tripjammer]

The FR-S is closer to 2700 pounds not 2800..the BRZ is in the mid 2700 pound range.

170-175 HP to the rear wheels is good...what was the S2000 putting to the wheels?

Oh yeah a stock S2000's dyno around 190 to 195HP....

http://hondaswap.com/auto-multi-medi...ck-dyno-72995/

[tripjammer]

Originally Posted by bigbcraig

Being an entry-level car that's supposed to be about handling and driver feel over tires and numbers; and with D4-S, I'll bet it's tuned for 87 or maybe 89 but not 91.

They clearly aren't shooting for high numbers from the factory, but are paying attention to selling a composed chassis and good driving experience. See high ride height despite low CG efforts, Prius tires, etc...

Its suppose to require premium unleaded...so it will be tuned for 91 octane. But if not, since the ECU is suppose to be unlocked, this will be an easy thing to tune for.

[nrclptcnsmniak]

anybody know if traction control were off? wouldnt that make a slight slight difference?

thanks for the vid and graph. this car looks great!

edit: can anybody translate what the guy is saying in the beginning? he seems to be smiling quite a bit

[DanPO]

You know.... I have really enjoyed reading this but we are forgetting what this car is REALLY about. Not the specs on the page. None of us are going to know anything about this car until we sit in it and experience it ourselves. I haven't seen a bad review or bad comment about this car yet from anyone who has driven the car. So... with that being said let's not rule out that Hp or Tq is good enough for the car. It wasn't made to look good on paper!!! It is that garage queen where on a Saturday when: Your wife is yelling at you that you didn't rinse the dishes before putting them in the dishwasher, you didn't perform good enough at your job that week and your kid is sick! You need an escape! You get in your FR-S/BRZ that is modded to your hearts desire and you go drift around that big corner next to your house because you know that no one else is watching you (and there are no cops).

Let's not forget that this car is about the experience of pure joy and freedom and not about the paper spec. However, if there was an STI version that comes out with 300+ of turbo charged hp/tq even at $40K I would buy it...because I could pull up to the typical 50 year old in his corvette or porche and blow him away. That is pure joy too.

[subatoy]

Originally Posted by FR

I don't get this whole argument with horsepower and torque

Sure I can paint my walls with a roller brush, but Picasso didn't use a friggin roller brush to paint, I want a precision tool. I drive a 318ti that besides muffler work and a few chip mods optimistically produces around 180hp with a 1.8 NA engine

The car is 2800 lbs and to be honest I'm waiting on the FR-S or BRZ to replace an aging car that has been a ball to handle.

Who cares about the stock numbers, we're all going to be modding the crap out of this car.

Some of you might as well start scavenging junkyards for a 2GRFE off a Sienna or god knows because those drag strip quarter mile numbers be calling !!!

you are going to be modding WHAT?
most of you guys here obviously don't know crap about boxer engines.
you'll probably spend $3k on upgrades and will probably only make like
15 HP to the crank.

[TheBoostCreep]

I would like to say that nobody knows for sure that the lower pulls were done in fourth gear. This seems to have been just a guess followed by consensus. With that in mind, and even if those plots were included in the set to be considered, the numbers quoted for the car would still be the peak number over a great many pulls.

The reason for discrepancies in power including the very low graphs could be many. The car may have experienced false or real knock conditions and pulled timing. The sensors which the Dyno uses for correction factors may have been misplaced or not set up yet. The conditions may have actually changed. I could go on for hours on the subject but let me just say that I am a dynamometer owner operator and a realistic pessimist.

Most chassis dynamometer shops do not provide more than three pulls for a baseline reading. This will lead to customers being all over the set you see here. People will be upset and others will be happy. The happy people will probably post their numbers and further reinforce the idea that all of these cars should make one hundred seventy wheel horsepower. The low reading cars may have even had it in them to generate higher numbers if given the chance to do as many pulls as what you see here.

None of this matters because Dynamometer readings truly are just to make changes and see the results. Accuracy and precision are the two classic factors here which seem to cause endless online debate. What this means is that we can never know for sure how cars stack up against each other on different days and in different places, but it means that we can know when we've made an improvement to a car in a controlled environment.

I have a little story I have come up with to explain the importance of horsepower and torque. Hopefully it will make the concepts clearer and illuminate the importance of both.

One day the two twin brothers Romulus and Remus decided to have a race in their little radio Flyer wagons. For purposes of this conversation they weigh the same, so do the wagons, and the radius of the wagon wheel and tire is exactly 1 foot. These boys enlist the help of the neighborhood kids and the challenge is set forth. Only one tire may have force applied to it, for they are new, made of alloy,and very nice.

Romulus believes that more torque is always better so he enlist the help of a kid who is carrying a 10 pound sledgehammer. Due to safety concerns everyone else must stand clear when this boy imparts his force to the tire by hitting it at an approximately tangent line on the tire. Because of the weight of the hammer, he is only capable of swinging the hammer once per second against the tire. This mathematically gives us a torque reading/polar moment of 10 pounds per foot. Romulus is very impressed with this performance and get sucked back to the back of the wagon with each hit. He is very pleased. Grass is flying!

Remus loves science, and he is very much into drag-racing. So he decides to enlist the help of four neighborhood children. He hands them out a set of croquet mallets which are much lighter than the sledge hammer. With the much lighter mallets, the children are capable of standing in line and taking turns. Each child imparts a 6 pound force to the tire and can do so in half of one second and then get out of the way for the next child. While perfecting this technique in the back lawn of his parents house, Remus starts to doubt his wisdom, he doesn't feel like he is getting pulled back as hard as he can see his brother is, and he senses that his brother is feeling more acceleration. But they have the timing down and every half second he gets another pulse, although a small one.

Finally, they lined up to race. After two seconds Remus, although he's not getting pulled to the back of his cart, is starting to leave Romulus behind. Romulus is feeling the pull as his sledgehammer powered wagon sets him back to the back with every hit. But he is losing the race.

The reason for the discrepancy between what the two boys feel and what they experience is the difference between horsepower and torque. By taking time into account we are able to quantify and study the effects of our decisions, and predict the results of this race. This is in spite of what our Butt Dyno would tell us about the situation. And this is why chassis dynamometers are so wonderful.

After two seconds in the race, mathematically, in Remus's case, the four hits from the neighborhood children have imparted a moment sum of 24 pound feet to the wagon which Remus rides. Romulus has only seen 20 pound feet in terms of an additive of moments over the same two seconds. This is the crux of the difference between horsepower and torque. Horsepower and torque truly are mathematically linked.

Horsepower equals torque multiplied by the rpm divided by 5252. This is what makes a turbocharged Honda quick and fast but not incredibly torquey, and also why turbo diesel trucks feels so damn good. It is also why they are useful, for later that afternoon in the sandbox the results were different.

Hopefully my drivel is worthy of your readership, and now back to our regularly scheduled debate.

Thank you James Watt!

[mines13]

Originally Posted by TheBoostCreep

I would like to say that nobody knows for sure that the lower pulls were done in fourth gear. This seems to have been just a guess followed by consensus. With that in mind, and even if those plots were included in the set to be considered, the numbers quoted for the car would still be the peak number over a great many pulls.

The reason for discrepancies in power including the very low graphs could be many. The car may have experienced false or real knock conditions and pulled timing. The sensors which the Dyno uses for correction factors may have been misplaced or not set up yet. The conditions may have actually changed. I could go on for hours on the subject but let me just say that I am a dynamometer owner operator and a realistic pessimist.

Most chassis dynamometer shops do not provide more than three pulls for a baseline reading. This will lead to customers being all over the set you see here. People will be upset and others will be happy. The happy people will probably post their numbers and further reinforce the idea that all of these cars should make one hundred seventy wheel horsepower. The low reading cars may have even had it in them to generate higher numbers if given the chance to do as many pulls as what you see here.

None of this matters because Dynamometer readings truly are just to make changes and see the results. Accuracy and precision are the two classic factors here which seem to cause endless online debate. What this means is that we can never know for sure how cars stack up against each other on different days and in different places, but it means that we can know when we've made an improvement to a car in a controlled environment.

I have a little story I have come up with to explain the importance of horsepower and torque. Hopefully it will make the concepts clearer and illuminate the importance of both.

One day the two twin brothers Romulus and Remus decided to have a race in their little radio Flyer wagon. For purposes of this conversation they weigh the same, so do the wagons, and the radius of the wagon wheel and tire is exactly 1 foot. These boys enlist the help of the neighborhood kids and the challenge is set forth. Only one tire may have force applied to it, for their new, made of alloy,and very nice.

Romulus believes that more torque is always better so he enlist the help of a kid who is carrying a 10 pound sledgehammer. Due to safety concerns everyone else must stand clear when this boy imparts his force to the tire by hitting it at an approximately tangent line on the tire. Because of the weight of the hammer is only capable of swinging the hammer once per second against the tire. This mathematically gives us a torque reading/polar moment of 10 pounds per foot. Romulus is very impressed with this performance and get sucked back to the back of the wagon with each hit. He is very pleased. Grass is flying!

Remus loves science, and he is very much into drag-racing. So he decides to enlist the help of four neighborhood children. He hands them out a set of croquet mallets which are much lighter than the sledge hammer. With the much lighter mallets, the children are capable of standing in line and taking turns. Each child imparts a 6 pound force to the tire and can do so in half of one second and then get out of the way for the next child. While perfecting this technique in the back lawn of his parents house, Remus starts to doubt his wisdom, he doesn't feel like he is getting pulled back as hard as he can see his brother is, and he senses that his brother is feeling more acceleration. But they have the timing down and every half second he gets another pulse, although a small one.

Finally, they lined up to race. After two seconds Remus, although he's not getting pulled to the back of his cart, is starting to leave Romulus behind. Romulus is feeling the pull as his sledgehammer powered wagon sets him back to the back with every hit. But he is losing the race.

The reason for the discrepancy between what the two boys feel and what they experience is the difference between horsepower and torque. By taking time into account we are able to quantify and study the effects of our decisions, and predict the results of this race. This is in spite of what our Butt Dyno would tell us about the situation. And this is why chassis dynamometers are so wonderful.

After two seconds in the race, mathematically, in Remus's case, the four hits from the neighborhood children have imparted a moment sum of 24 pound feet to the wagon which Remus rides. Romulus has only seen 20 pound feet in terms of an additive of moments over the same two seconds. This is the crux of the difference between horsepower and torque. Horsepower and torque truly are mathematically linked.

Horsepower equals torque multiplied by the rpm divided by 5252. This is what makes a turbocharged Honda quick and fast but not incredibly torquey, and also why turbo diesel trucks feels so damn good. It is also why they are useful, for later that afternoon in the sandbox the results were different.

Hopefully my drivel is worthy of your readership, and now back to our regularly scheduled debate.

Thank you James Watt!

You win at physics. The fact is, if you are just worried about a number, a dyno will lie to you 5 ways from Sunday. It is a tool, not an answer in it's own right. Great read. Analogy and everything, you are a good writer.

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by subatoy

you are going to be modding WHAT?
most of you guys here obviously don't know crap about boxer engines.
you'll probably spend $3k on upgrades and will probably only make like
15 HP to the crank.

Wait, so you think know one here is serious about modding?

Originally Posted by tripjammer

The FR-S is closer to 2700 pounds not 2800..the BRZ is in the mid 2700 pound range.

170-175 HP to the rear wheels is good...what was the S2000 putting to the wheels?

Oh yeah a stock S2000's dyno around 190 to 195HP....

It might be. I think in the latest Dsport, the GReddy FR-S with the 19's on it was 2,762. So it might be that a bone stock FR-S would be closer to 2700lbs. Either way, I think I was still closer than anyone saying 2600lbs. I based my first prediction from the Gazoo Racing weight for their race car 86.

[nrclptcnsmniak]

Originally Posted by DanPO

You know.... I have really enjoyed reading this but we are forgetting what this car is REALLY about. Not the specs on the page. None of us are going to know anything about this car until we sit in it and experience it ourselves. I haven't seen a bad review or bad comment about this car yet from anyone who has driven the car. So... with that being said let's not rule out that Hp or Tq is good enough for the car. It wasn't made to look good on paper!!! It is that garage queen where on a Saturday when: Your wife is yelling at you that you didn't rinse the dishes before putting them in the dishwasher, you didn't perform good enough at your job that week and your kid is sick! You need an escape! You get in your FR-S/BRZ that is modded to your hearts desire and you go drift around that big corner next to your house because you know that no one else is watching you (and there are no cops).

Let's not forget that this car is about the experience of pure joy and freedom and not about the paper spec. However, if there was an STI version that comes out with 300+ of turbo charged hp/tq even at $40K I would buy it...because I could pull up to the typical 50 year old in his corvette or porche and blow him away. That is pure joy too.

we have forgotten what this car is all about? then you go on and talk about an STI variant with 300 + hp and turbo charged? when its been said time and time again that this will not happen! I think you sir have forgotten what this car is about. I for one couldnt care less about the hp number.

[brewksy]

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

Wait, so you think know one here is serious about modding?

He is serious - he used CAPITALS to show how serious he is. We will all be spending THOUSANDS of dollars just to add 15hp to this engine. He knows this because he watched the video and he knows everything about boxer engines.