Is anyone else on the fence due to the engine choice?

[Siriusly.Andrew]

the unbiased part is hard. sorting facts isn't. And there are a lot of facts in there :P

[Conor]

Originally Posted by BoostJunkie

Kinda hot in here or is it just me?

I'm enjoying the discussions!

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

As does the 1UZ V8. Toyota took a step Backwards this generation wrt engine weight.

Except that the modern 2GRFE makes as much power/torque and is capable of incredibly good fuel economy for its output (20/29mpg in the AVALON, for chrissakes!).

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

Says who? While you might be right, I don't think this thing will weight any more than 2700lbs. If it does (in NA trim) Toyota will have failed imho.

Says me. That's just how modern cars work.. I'll be pleasantly surprised if it weighs in under 2,900 pounds. 2900 pounds is still a nice weight, in any case.

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

Ah, but you can't position the 2GR as far back as you could the boxer engine. The CoG would also be MUCH higher, and it's not just centering the weight, but lowering it as well. Further more, it would have design implications (aesthetic as well as aerodynamic) too. It would be impossible to make the hoodline as low, especially to comply with pedestrian saftey regulations.

You're splitting hairs. once again, 99.99% of drivers would not be able to discern a difference..

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

Of course, but I think you fail to grasp that this car is no Supra. I love Toyota's V6 & V8 engines, but I think an engine should be well matched to the chassis to make a great car, and I do think that a bigger chassis would be better for a 2GR engine. Maybe if they decide to make a roadster for Lexus, stretching it ever so slightly and forgetting the 2 rear seats then a 2GR would be a perfect fit.

I'm not sure why you think I was expecting this to be a Supra..

Also, "big motor, small car" is a classic recipe for awesomeness and excellent hoonage. "Small motor, small car" is a classic recipe for econoboxes that are fun to flog but not exactly awesome (see AE86, MR2, Miata, every British roadster from the 60s/70s..). You're really, really overthinking it here, methinks.

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

I think calling it a "raging pile of shit" is a bit extreme, but what else do you expect from a 24+ year old engine? If the engines today weren't better then that would indeed make them raging piles of shit.

I don't feel that way at all. The 4AGE is a fine engine.. but it really is lackluster. It's a dog. It's fun as hell to wring out to redline.. but it doesn't do much in terms of moving the car real well.

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

Basically... they'd have to redesign the front end, find a manual transmission to go with it, probably put a bigger diff in the back, probably redesign the suspension geometries, bigger brakes... and the list goes on.

Did you read what I wrote? All this stuff is already on the shelf.. Maybe mostly the Lexus parts shelf, but still on the shelf. These parts existed before they ever even began designing the boxer setup. I'm sure they have their reasons.. (cost being primary, no doubt).. As this car is supposed to cost less than a 370Z (although I'll believe that when I see it).

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

It seems that for you, everything comes down to power, and that's what your problem is. Pull your head out of you ass, and just MAYBE, you could get what this car is about.

You couldn't be more wrong I put a 165hp/185lb-ft V6 into my '93 MR2.. It'll never make as much peak power and torque as a lightly-modified factory turbo engine.. so why would I do that if I were all about horsepower?

The swap I did was for drivability and all around performance. It's about ridiculously crisp throttle response and low-end oomph. It's about it being a fantastic highway cruiser as well as a burnout machine...

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

No, I don't want Toyota to handicap the car (see MR-2 Spyder), but the car has to work for the pretty blonde who doesn't like to spend much on gas, or the wanna be cool eco geek as much as the hard core track nuts/sunday canyon racers like the people on this forum. As you said, if this car doesn't sell, we will have to go without after a generation or two. Furthermore, saying 4 cylinders are crap, is a huge injustice to the legendary 4 cylinder motors that have existed, and care fuck all about cost or economy.

If the 2GR can do 29mpg in an Avalon.. I'm sure it could hit mid 30s in a sub-3000pound coupe. 270-300whp and 34-35mpg? Sign me up!

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Conor

Except that the modern 2GRFE makes as much power/torque and is capable of incredibly good fuel economy for its output (20/29mpg in the AVALON, for chrissakes!).

Except that the 2GR in the avalon falls 32hp/40ftlbs of the last 1UZ that was produced. Can't argue with the economy, but those are perks of a generation of development, don't you think?

Originally Posted by Conor

Says me. That's just how modern cars work.. I'll be pleasantly surprised if it weighs in under 2,900 pounds. 2900 pounds is still a nice weight, in any case.

Sorry, I didn't know that you were on of the guys on the engineering team. My apologies. How much does the convertible MX-5 weigh again?

Originally Posted by Conor

You're splitting hairs. once again, 99.99% of drivers would not be able to discern a difference..

a) I'd say your estimate is bullshit.

b) Even if you were close to being right, Toyota plans to sell around 100k or 200k per year? Then that would be max 3% of drivers who'd "need" to discern the difference, and I'd like to think that most guys in the market for this kind of car can tell the difference say between a BMW 3 series and corolla.

c) Most importantly however, it's not all about the driver being able to discern, but also what the car is CAPABLE of. Most drivers aren't able to take a car to 10/10ths, but many BUY because of what it CAN do at 10/10ths.

Originally Posted by Conor

I'm not sure why you think I was expecting this to be a Supra..

Also, "big motor, small car" is a classic recipe for awesomeness and excellent hoonage. "Small motor, small car" is a classic recipe for econoboxes that are fun to flog but not exactly awesome (see AE86, MR2, Miata, every British roadster from the 60s/70s..). You're really, really overthinking it here, methinks.

It's a classic recipe for muscle cars. Agility does not often come to mind when one thinks of muscle cars. You really AREN'T thinking, methinks.

Originally Posted by Conor

I don't feel that way at all. The 4AGE is a fine engine.. but it really is lackluster. It's a dog. It's fun as hell to wring out to redline.. but it doesn't do much in terms of moving the car real well.

100 odd horsepower would cause that sensation no? There weren't many better 4s in it's time.

Originally Posted by Conor

Did you read what I wrote? All this stuff is already on the shelf.. Maybe mostly the Lexus parts shelf, but still on the shelf. These parts existed before they ever even began designing the boxer setup. I'm sure they have their reasons.. (cost being primary, no doubt).. As this car is supposed to cost less than a 370Z (although I'll believe that when I see it).

And they could have also hacked together something on the IS platform, but that's obviously not the direction they chose to go with no?

If it costs more than a 370Z, that will be total fail as well.

Originally Posted by Conor

You couldn't be more wrong I put a 165hp/185lb-ft V6 into my '93 MR2.. It'll never make as much peak power and torque as a lightly-modified factory turbo engine.. so why would I do that if I were all about horsepower?

Power band maybe? If you can't tune a 2.0 turbo 4 to have a better power band than a 3.0 V6 with only 165hp/185ftlbs, then I'm guessing I'd have to rethink the good things the guys on here from the MR2 board have had to say about you.

Originally Posted by Conor

The swap I did was for drivability and all around performance. It's about ridiculously crisp throttle response and low-end oomph. It's about it being a fantastic highway cruiser as well as a burnout machine...

See my above comment (and this coming from a person that thinks attempting to put a UZ in an MR2 is a good idea).

Originally Posted by Conor

If the 2GR can do 29mpg in an Avalon.. I'm sure it could hit mid 30s in a sub-3000pound coupe. 270-300whp and 34-35mpg? Sign me up!

didn't you just say that this won't weigh less than 3000lbs? Less so with a 2GR. Remind me again in which trim does the 2GR put down 300whp?

[70NYD]

connor is a troll.. lol at everything he says (espec about putting a v6 in his mr2... can you miss the point more??) and i think my 1st responce 2 u was the same as this one right now - your a hill billy.. go do some tractor pulls and leave your opinions out of this low weight reasonably powered car
that is all

(ps matadors posts rule )

[BoostJunkie]

Lol well I'm enjoying watching this fact explosion!!!

[f1ver]

200hp is weak. need to get 300hp+

[Snaps]

^ I agree 200hp is a *little* weak for a 2700pound car, but I think 300hp is OTT... 220-230 would be a good number IMO, very similar to the S2000 in fact, less weight and a little less (?) power. The S2000 is no slouch (around a tight track) in stock form, I doubt the FT will be either...

300+hp is asking for people to get killed, especially if the price stays the same at ~$25K, you'll get a heap of unexperienced drivers in a lightweight, high-powered (for it's weight) car, and that leads to easy loss of control

[MtnDrvr86]

I think 200 is plenty to have fun with, especially if its around 2700 lbs and decent suspension setup.

[BoostJunkie]

250....There i said it

[NESW20]

200hp is more than enough to get you into trouble in a 1300lb car...........

































i got jokes. really though, 200hp is enough, as long as the car is fairly light with a proper suspension set up to be balanced and not just plow like a maintainer during a blizzard.

[BoostJunkie]

200 maybe fine with you, but I'm use to bigger power, I need to start off at 250ish, and then I'll pour the chilli to it myself(bigger turbo, bigger exhaust, intake, boost cont., ect....) man I can't wait!

[NESW20]

oh, don't get me wrong, i'm all about having silly amounts of power, but that's not what i need in the FT. that's what my MR2 is for.

[BoostJunkie]

I agree but I still want about 300whp for recreational purposes and incase I'm late to work, but your right my mass amounts of power are gonna be had with my MKIV

[Matador]

Originally Posted by BoostJunkie

I agree but I still want about 300whp for recreational purposes and incase I'm late to work, but your right my mass amounts of power are gonna be had with my MKIV

So get the turbo model and quit yer bitching.