Car & Driver Comparison Test Review: Veloster N vs. GTI vs. BRZ vs. GR86

[Dzmitry]

Originally Posted by Robertw

I liked the part in this thread where a stickered on rear spoiler is adding drag and impacting 1/4 times or speed. I've been off forums for a little bit, and man I missed them.

I was only making an inference based on the fact that the tS lost 0.1 second on 0-60 and the quarter mile in addition to losing 1 mph trap speed. Based on the fact that the only changes to the car were aero additions that added a little weight as well, this was the only reasonable connection I could make, even though I don't know a ton on this subject.

[CincyJohn]

Originally Posted by TommyW

I asked CSG Mike in another thread what he though about the performance difference was like between a tuned with header Gen 1 and a stock Gen 2 and he said it was pretty close.

I would guess you would also need to throw e85 into the Gen1 to get all the way to "pretty close."

Of course, that just begs the question of what numbers a Gen2 with headers, tune and e85 ends up making. THAT is the car I will want to drive before deciding whether or not to trade up to a Gen2. FWIW, I fully expect to really want to make that trade...

[alphasaur]

this guy puts down 20hp more than his e85 tuned gen1 on the same dyno it seems like

[Dzmitry]

Originally Posted by CincyJohn

I would guess you would also need to throw e85 into the Gen1 to get all the way to "pretty close."

Of course, that just begs the question of what numbers a Gen2 with headers, tune and e85 ends up making. THAT is the car I will want to drive before deciding whether or not to trade up to a Gen2. FWIW, I fully expect to really want to make that trade...

That's definitely my biggest excitement as well; to see the final gains from basic mods on a gen2. If it makes it to something like 240 whp, it will be a pretty incredible 4 cylinder NA sports car on the road and an animal at the track.

[TommyW]

Originally Posted by CincyJohn

I would guess you would also need to throw e85 into the Gen1 to get all the way to "pretty close."

Of course, that just begs the question of what numbers a Gen2 with headers, tune and e85 ends up making. THAT is the car I will want to drive before deciding whether or not to trade up to a Gen2. FWIW, I fully expect to really want to make that trade...

G2 with all the goodies will be the car to have.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Dzmitry

That's definitely my biggest excitement as well; to see the final gains from basic mods on a gen2. If it makes it to something like 240 whp, it will be a pretty incredible 4 cylinder NA sports car on the road and an animal at the track.

So the car "makes" 210-215 whp and you wish now to gain an additional 25-30 whp with NA modifications? The factory tune is not anymore conservative as it was in the old cars (target AFR is 12.3 on high revs) and it is not a turbo either.

Going back to sleep.

[Dzmitry]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

So the car "makes" 210-215 whp and you wish now to gain an additional 25-30 whp with NA modifications? The factory tune is not anymore conservative as it was in the old cars (target AFR is 12.3 on high revs) and it is not a turbo either.

Going back to sleep.

I was referring to the modifications CincyJohn listed, that I also have on my gen1. I consider some quality headers and flex E85 to be quite basic modifications. Don't see how a gain of 25-30 whp would be unrealistic.

Enjoy your sleep.

[Lantanafrs2]

Speaking of e85, I dunno about you guys but at least one station in my area isn't going to sell it for awhile because it's now more expensive than regular.

[CincyJohn]

Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2

Speaking of e85, I dunno about you guys but at least one station in my area isn't going to sell it for awhile because it's now more expensive than regular.

I've been meaning to make the switch over to 93 for that reason. My calculation before was that 93 and e85 were pretty much a wash based upon the cost vs. mileage analysis. I figure I might as well go back to 93 for a little while (especially given the winter and not much opportunity to exercise the ponies).

[Dzmitry]

Originally Posted by CincyJohn

I've been meaning to make the switch over to 93 for that reason. My calculation before was that 93 and e85 were pretty much a wash based upon the cost vs. mileage analysis. I figure I might as well go back to 93 for a little while (especially given the winter and not much opportunity to exercise the ponies).

It's interesting to me that a lot of people look at E85 in terms of a way to save money. I have always looked at it as a modification in which you get what you pay for. Many people who do modifications on their cars spend thousands, sometimes tens of thousands, to make their cars quicker or better. E85, to me, is exactly that. You are getting a solid power bump, and you are paying the price at the pump for it.

I barely even pay attention to what the price is, let alone bother calculating whether I am saving or losing money. I fill it up when I am in the mood for the extra oomph. IMO, it has always been well worth it, regardless the cost. It's just a bonus to me that E85 is cheaper than 93 as I know I am going to be burning up more fuel anyway.

Nothing against all the folks who look at it in terms of cost effectiveness. It just comes as a surprise to me how many people actually look at it that way vs. just doing it for the power and smiles per gallon.

[Ernest72]

Originally Posted by Dzmitry

It's interesting to me that a lot of people look at E85 in terms of a way to save money. I have always looked at it as a modification in which you get what you pay for. Many people who do modifications on their cars spend thousands, sometimes tens of thousands, to make their cars quicker or better. E85, to me, is exactly that. You are getting a solid power bump, and you are paying the price at the pump for it.

I barely even pay attention to what the price is, let alone bother calculating whether I am saving or losing money. I fill it up when I am in the mood for the extra oomph. IMO, it has always been well worth it, regardless the cost. It's just a bonus to me that E85 is cheaper than 93 as I know I am going to be burning up more fuel anyway.

Nothing against all the folks who look at it in terms of cost effectiveness. It just comes as a surprise to me how many people actually look at it that way vs. just doing it for the power and smiles per gallon.

Depends on your use. My 119 mile round trip commute 3-4 days a week would not be worth it with E85. Cruising at 75mph E85 does not do much. So I stick with 93, wish I could go to 87.

If this was a weekend car or I had a short commute I totally agree with you. I would never look at cost and go E85 all the time. It would be worth it.

[Frost]

Originally Posted by Dzmitry

It's interesting to me that a lot of people look at E85 in terms of a way to save money. I have always looked at it as a modification in which you get what you pay for. Many people who do modifications on their cars spend thousands, sometimes tens of thousands, to make their cars quicker or better. E85, to me, is exactly that. You are getting a solid power bump, and you are paying the price at the pump for it.

I barely even pay attention to what the price is, let alone bother calculating whether I am saving or losing money. I fill it up when I am in the mood for the extra oomph. IMO, it has always been well worth it, regardless the cost. It's just a bonus to me that E85 is cheaper than 93 as I know I am going to be burning up more fuel anyway.

Nothing against all the folks who look at it in terms of cost effectiveness. It just comes as a surprise to me how many people actually look at it that way vs. just doing it for the power and smiles per gallon.

Me too.

Basic physics and chemistry dictate that E85 has a LOWER energy content per unit volume than gasoline so if you're strictly looking at a commuting style driving and how much you pump into the car, THAT balance doesn't quite work economically (assuming no changes to driving style).

Where E85 has some merit is when you expand the scope of energy AND mass, you can make an arguement that it does do carbon capture as the ethanol creation process is from either plants or something that captures carbon from the environment to produce said fuel.

Ultimately, E85 has its merits but its not the magical green fuel that is better in every way than gasoline. Like all tools... "it depends".

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Dzmitry

I was referring to the modifications CincyJohn listed, that I also have on my gen1. I consider some quality headers and flex E85 to be quite basic modifications. Don't see how a gain of 25-30 whp would be unrealistic.

Enjoy your sleep.

You could gain in the old (pre-facelift) car 10-15hp just with a plain tune. I don't think it'll be the case with the new car , because the tune looks to be already optimized. So, you lose this power bump before going into headers or e85.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

You could gain in the old (pre-facelift) car 10-15hp just with a plain tune.

I don't think you can expect to gain any hp in a '17+ "just with a plain tune", and my vastly experienced and well-respected tuner told me as much. The factory tune at 7000 rpm is pretty well optimized for power. My '17 with a midrangey 4-2-1 header and very well optimized tune made barely more than stock at 7000rpm (but *way* more midrange and didn't fall off as much from 7000 up to extended 7600rpm rev-limit), and my bud's '17 with a more top-end optimized 4-1 header and optimized tune made +7hp over stock (but way less midrange than mine).