FR-S vs. 370z, end all be all of discussions

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Now repeat this exercise with the 370Z, RX-8, Genesis Coupe, Miata.

Enthusiasts, as much as we say we are only about the performance, are actually pretty biased buyers.

If I went with the GC I sure as hell would go with the 2.0T over the 3.8. No questions about that. Great after market parts for the 2.0T and lower entry price. That one is easy for me.

Now regarding the Mustang V6 vs. V8. I'm not a Mustang guy at all and never considered one. Not sure if there is more difference between the two than the engine? (I assume suspension, transmission, brakes...etc. would be different and upgraded on the V8 version?). Really depends what I wanted to use it for. I'm sure with the $10k difference between the V6 and V8 you could easily get ~450-500hp with either a turbo/sc and still have some money left over to do other mods to the V6. If you just wanted to buy the car and leave it as that, probably the V8 makes more sense. Just don't see why an enthusiast might not consider the V6. Hell you have people buying Civics, tC, Celica's...etc. and modding them instead of buying an STi or M3 with the total amount of money they paid for the car + parts. Different horses for different courses.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

If I went with the GC I sure as hell would go with the 2.0T over the 3.8. No questions about that. Great after market parts for the 2.0T and lower entry price. That one is easy for me.

Now regarding the Mustang V6 vs. V8. I'm not a Mustang guy at all and never considered one. Not sure if there is more difference between the two than the engine? (I assume suspension, transmission, brakes...etc. would be different and upgraded on the V8 version?). Really depends what I wanted to use it for. I'm sure with the $10k difference between the V6 and V8 you could easily get ~450-500hp with either a turbo/sc and still have some money left over to do other mods to the V6. If you just wanted to buy the car and leave it as that, probably the V8 makes more sense. Just don't see why an enthusiast might not consider the V6. Hell you have people buying Civics, tC, Celica's...etc. and modding them instead of buying an STi or M3 with the total amount of money they paid for the car + parts. Different horses for different courses.

I don't know really, I'm not a Mustang guy either. But when it comes to Mustang enthusiasts, I just don't see V6 Mustangs. The only non-V8's I've seen at the track are the old SVO turbos.

With the Civics you'll see a swapped Civic or Si(R, depending on year) driven by an enthusiast but very rarely base motors. Riced out ones yes, but rarely a well done mod'd standard Civic. And it's not like the swapped Civics are done as soon as they got home from the dealer.

Celica's probably the same between the GT and GT-S but they are less common at the track (7th gens).

The base cars are typically the show-before go crowd (if they're modded), or just an ordinary commuter.

I think my request for a stock 148 hp FB20 puts me in the 'would buy a V6 over a V8 if I were a Mustang guy'. But most people here would be 'WTF?' If I do get my wish of a cheap FB20, it will also be with the knowledge that after some immediate handling mods with the $ saved, in a few years the motor will get yanked for a more powerful one.

But I think I would be in the vast minority of the enthusiasts with my choice.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Dimman

I don't know really, I'm not a Mustang guy either. But when it comes to Mustang enthusiasts, I just don't see V6 Mustangs. The only non-V8's I've seen at the track are the old SVO turbos.

With the Civics you'll see a swapped Civic or Si(R, depending on year) driven by an enthusiast but very rarely base motors. Riced out ones yes, but rarely a well done mod'd standard Civic. And it's not like the swapped Civics are done as soon as they got home from the dealer.

Celica's probably the same between the GT and GT-S but they are less common at the track (7th gens).

The base cars are typically the show-before go crowd (if they're modded), or just an ordinary commuter.

I think my request for a stock 148 hp FB20 puts me in the 'would buy a V6 over a V8 if I were a Mustang guy'. But most people here would be 'WTF?' If I do get my wish of a cheap FB20, it will also be with the knowledge that after some immediate handling mods with the $ saved, in a few years the motor will get yanked for a more powerful one.

But I think I would be in the vast minority of the enthusiasts with my choice.

No I hear you. I just think there are some enthusiasts that buy a 4 cylinder or 6 cylinder instead of the 8 cylinder to be different and see what they can do with that setup. I don't have a problem with that. Just like you would rather have a lower hp engine but lighter and cheaper car since you will eventually do you own mods at a later point. That is why I say some enthusiasts might want the lower engine option since they will do their own swap/engine build anyways. So I think that is a valid option. Others just want a bone stock car and not have to worry about it and just drive it and enjoy it. So I think both are valid. Just like some on here want a 200hp NA engine and others want a 270-300hp turbo version. Each one is valid, just people have different preferences.

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by DesertSpool

Mustang V6 (slow as balls in the corners and will get destroyed).95g skidpad stock......2011 Scion Tc skidpad .84g
Ford Focus ST Turbo (if it aint a Cosworth it's garbage)This is so dumb I can't even respond
MazdaSpeed3 (blows up when you push 300whp) I see plenty of 300hp+ that haven't
Subaru WRX (only formidable opponent on this list)

Please explain to me how $3k into this or a Tc (.84 skidpad) would demolish a 300whp+ WRX. Someone has fanboism of the brain.

I race in real life, not with magazine numbers. tC makes 300+whp And 300wtq at 9lbs of boost. That's "wheel" HP not crank. Turbo kit for a tC is $3k-$5k for a new kit depending how baller you want to get. Go used and you spend $1500-2000. New WRX make 300whp? Thought it was 300hp as in crank....*tisk* *tisk*

9 out of 10 MS3 I have come across have blown up the moment they start getting up past the 280 mark. Its a ticking time bomb at 300+.

Only a noob who hasn't raced or been involved in any real racing would only look at cars and only form an opinion based only on their HP numbers. Driver skill is significantly more important than the car.

[tranzformer]

Just one example of a V6 turbo Stang. I wouldn't drive a Stang personally but understand why some might go with the V6 then turbo it. Basically you get GT500 power numbers for the price of a GT with a turbo V6.


[u2b]0HWYq-WAGPU[/u2b]

434whp, 516wtq


But for many it is more than just hp numbers and some just want the V8 to say they have the V8 or they always wanted the 8 version.

[Dragonitti]

You guys Need to be specific. If you say 2011 tC with $3k in it beating a 2011 V6 Stang then its a different approach to mods. Can't get a turbo setup for that cheap on a 2011 cause they just came out. But if you talking older Gen tC with $3k in it, I could toss a turbo setup into, Coilovers, and tires onto the stock wheels and destroy every car on that list on or off the track.

And yes I am dead serious about the MS3. Go to the MS3 forums and research. I went there a while back to gain some knowledge on them. I kept running into guys turning up the boost and tuning for 300whp only to be met with a blown motor. Its their fueling setup that's a weak link in them. They have to add a fuel pump setup just to make 280whp. My boy was pushing 280whp on his MS3 when I raced him. A little while later he told me he had to replace the motor. Had an upgraded pump, tuned, etc.

Another friend of mine...same story.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Just one example of a V6 turbo Stang. I wouldn't drive a Stang personally but understand why some might go with the V6 then turbo it. Basically you get GT500 power numbers for the price of a GT with a turbo V6.


[u2b]0HWYq-WAGPU[/u2b]

434whp, 516wtq


But for many it is more than just hp numbers and some just want the V8 to say they have the V8 or they always wanted the 8 version.

Problem is you're pretty much maxed out there, without a lot more $. You could throw a bottle on a V8 and laugh at the turbo 6 for not much more money.

That's partly my concern about only hearing about the regular FB20, and no confirmation on what the FT86 will have, or how different its version of the motor will be.

200 hp @ 7000 rpm from the 90 mm stroke FB20 would be close its max without replacing internals. With the long stroke, that rpm may even be pushing it. Adding boost to that wouldn't make me comfortable at all.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

You guys Need to be specific. If you say 2011 tC with $3k in it beating a 2011 V6 Stang then its a different approach to mods. Can't get a turbo setup for that cheap on a 2011 cause they just came out. But if you talking older Gen tC with $3k in it, I could toss a turbo setup into, Coilovers, and tires onto the stock wheels and destroy every car on that list on or off the track.

It is only fair to compare new vs. new. But if we are taking used cars might as well throw in a used E36 M3 into the mix. Buy one used, throw in a turbo kit and be done with it. Same thing with a MkIII Supra. Buy used rebuild the engine and throw in a bigger turbo.

[Exage]

Originally Posted by Dimman

But the 370Z is going to be probably over $10k more than the FT86 here in Canada. The 370Z starts at $40,898 CAD, which is $43,298.93 USD (not including ridiculous Canadian taxes!!!). Compare with a Scion tC which starts at $20,850 CAD ($22,074.00 USD). So even if the FT86 costs 50% more than a tC, it'll still be about $10k cheaper than a Z. Not going to happen.

The Canadian market is ridiculous. Here why I'm not cross shopping a 370Z based solely on price.

Canadian MSRP (rounded and on the base model, no options) of the following 2 door RWD cars with a manual transmission (except Challenger V6):
Challenger SRT8 V8: $50K
135i: $43K
Camaro SS V8: $42K
RX-8 R3: $42K
370Z base V6: $41K
Mustang GT 5.0: $39K
Challenger R/T V8: $38K
128i: $36K
_____________________
Genesis Coupe V6: $33K
MX-5 GS 6-speed: $33K
MX-5 GX 5-speed: $29K
Challenger V6: $27K
Camaro V6: $26
Genesis Coupe 2.0T: $25K
Mustang V6: $23K

My guess is that the FR-S will be under $35K base starting for the Canadian market, how far is unknown. IMO the line represents going from one class to another, but it depends on how picky you are in comparing and how much money you have to spend.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Exage

but it depends on how picky you are in comparing and how much money you have to spend.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Exage

The Canadian market is ridiculous. Here why I'm not cross shopping a 370Z based solely on price.

Canadian MSRP (rounded and on the base model, no options) of the following 2 door RWD cars with a manual transmission (except Challenger V6):
Challenger SRT8 V8: $50K
135i: $43K
Camaro SS V8: $42K
RX-8 R3: $42K
370Z base V6: $41K
Mustang GT 5.0: $39K
Challenger R/T V8: $38K
128i: $36K
_____________________
Genesis Coupe V6: $33K
MX-5 GS 6-speed: $33K
MX-5 GX 5-speed: $29K
Challenger V6: $27K
Camaro V6: $26
Genesis Coupe 2.0T: $25K
Mustang V6: $23K

My guess is that the FR-S will be under $35K base starting for the Canadian market, how far is unknown. IMO the line represents going from one class to another, but it depends on how picky you are in comparing and how much money you have to spend.

I'm hoping it comes in at around $24k. $3k more than a tC. If they want it to succeed they need to price it realistically. It's going to be difficult for the Scion sales reps to sell it to Joe Average or Suzie Secretary when compared to a cheaper tC that has only 20 hp less, but probably feels faster on the test drive because of the torque.

At $24k it could take Joe Average and Suzie secretary out of V6 Mustangs with its looks, reliability, economy, ease of parking, etc... All the boring stuff (discounting looks).

Also if they're emphasizing the 'MPGs' (to save money, right?) in the press release stuff, making it much more expensive than the next Scion doesn't make any sense. Why spend a bunch more money than a tC to get slightly better economy?

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Dimman

making it much more expensive than the next Scion doesn't make any sense. Why spend a bunch more money than a tC to get slightly better economy?

Well said. Unless of course Toyota has overestimated the success of selling this car as a Scion rather than Toyota in Canada/USA. But I'm sure Scion has put Toyota to ease by telling them how successful this car will be under Scion. Unless someone cares about RWD, lightweight, boxer engine...etc. I'm not sure the average Joe or Suzie Secretary will care about those differences and could very well go with the cheaper tC. However I am assuming the FR-S will look >>>>> than the tC so you might earn a few sales that way. But in general I think most people (average person) in this economy will pick the cheaper option out of two equally specd/designed cars. Only us enthusiasts will care about those small differences.

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

It is only fair to compare new vs. new. But if we are taking used cars might as well throw in a used E36 M3 into the mix. Buy one used, throw in a turbo kit and be done with it. Same thing with a MkIII Supra. Buy used rebuild the engine and throw in a bigger turbo.

If you comparing new to new, for $3k into a 2011 tC I know what mods it would take to beat a stock 2011 v6 Stang on and off the track.

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by DesertSpool

For someone "that races in real life" you sure as hell don't sound like you know what you're talking about. I said $3k TOTAL for mods......you said $3-5K for the turbo kit on a Tc ALONE. No install? Planning on doing that pro-job yourself chief?

So now you're getting a Turbo install'd, coilovers AND tires $3k? Damn, in the 350Z land you're looking at $9K in parts alone......no install or build. Unless the stock Scion Tc motor can handle boost like a champ....youre going to need to build it and have it professionally tuned.

Just because your "boy" doesn't know how to properly tune an FI engine doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be done. I see plenty of blown engines in any and every model of car when people start messing with things they don't understand.

So far you haven't made a case for any of the cars listed IN THE SAME PRICE RANGE being lesser vehicles than the Tc or the NA FR-S.

Unless you consider "It's not a Coworth" a valid argument. Your Mustang comment has already backfired.

Can you read? I said if you were to buy it NEW $3-5k TOTAL for the turbo setup. If you were to get a used setup then $1500-2000 for a well conditioned one, leaving money left over for a set of coilovers and tires. Hell I might even be able to squeeze an LSD into the trans. That would wipe a mud hole in those cars listed.

I don't speak from theory, I speak from experience.

And yes "CHEIF" I install my own shit. If I were to just street tune it, it still would be good enough to walk those cars. If I were to do a pro tune it would be around $500 for a tune.

And the other part you missed is that I owned a 350z as well. I know what it cost to mod them. You have to remove the motor to drop a set of Twin snails in it. That kinda put a bad taste in my mouth on boosting my Z as I didn't want a single. On the tC, shit is right there up front. And after racing my tC at just 8lbs of boost on a small ass 16G turbo against my 350z and watching the tC put bus lengths on it, it put an even bigger taste in my mouth and I soon understood that the Z is just to heavy.

My Z had Stg. 2 Clutch/light flywheel, APS test pipes, Tein-Stechs, K&N drop in filter and some different tires as I was using it for drifting. I stuck to drifting with that car as I didn't feel it was fast enough without a crap load of money into it anywhere else. I did beat a couple SRT-4's with it (one Stg 2 SRT-4).


9 out of 10 MS3's I came across were painfully blown up at the 300whp mark. Couple that with two personal people I know who ran into the same issue, and you think I'm being over critical. Right. I know quite a few 400+whp tC's too, but I'm not a dummy and think it can live a long life at 400whp. MS3 don't live that long in the 300+ range unless you granny driving it to the grocery store and that's it. Saying I dynoed at 500whp on a stock motor, but I never really race = GARBAGE. I'm talking full out reliability at that whp in a racing environment, not Daily Driving it.

If you want me to provide proof rather than just talking, I could do that also. No biggie.