Heel Toe Around Town?

[Bullnettles]

Originally Posted by Thavash

Does anyone else who does heel and toe wish the pedals were slightly closer together ? Like maybe on a BMW ?

Mine are good unless I'm bare-foot, then I have to properly heel-toe instead of using the sides of my feet. Then again, I have big-ass hobbit feet, so YMMV.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by SkullWorks

No what happens is people like you want to step in and make definitive statements contradictory to logic, then you get butthurt and spend 3 days trying to back pedal out of a misinformed statement, your responses to other people pointing out your flaws in an attempt to disprove the logic i presented you prove you are not well versed enough in what is going on to discuss this topic.

if you understood the difference in decelerating the engine vs decelerating the car (with clutch slip) to match rev's we might be able to get you to understand the difference between upshifting and downshifting. However from here it is apparent I (we) should simply avoid responding to you in technical discussions. Or perhaps you shouldn't shoot from the hip while armchair engineering things you simply don't understand???

i think that whats happening is people are taking obscure things i say in reference to a single point and applying it to the whole argument. im sure that out of context a lot of things sound strange. im perfectly fine with you thinking im stupid. it doesnt bother me at all but bear in mind, an error in communications isnt always the listeners fault.

if i could sum up the points i was trying to make it would sound like this: saying heel toe is important because you need to be in the right gear is a poor argument. you dont need to heel toe to be in the right gear. also because the term right gear is ambiguous enough to make any statement predicated on the term useless. saying heel toe is important because of clutch wear is a poor argument because the clutch wear from a downshift in normal driving (what this thread was originally about) is insignificant. i would guess that on this forum there are more broken motors than broken clutches so if you are worried about a $500 dollar consumable, you are in the wrong car.

with all that said and done, ill heel toe when i find it conducive to the style of driving i am engaged in. i drive a 90whp miata most of the time so i am used to needing 5k rpms to simply move. if i can get by with out a heel toe and am still on the original clutch after 120k miles without feeling the need for it, i dont see the importance of it for regular driving. its simply a luxury.

[SkullWorks]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i think that whats happening is people are taking obscure things i say in reference to a single point and applying it to the whole argument. im sure that out of context a lot of things sound strange. im perfectly fine with you thinking im stupid. it doesnt bother me at all but bear in mind, an error in communications isnt always the listeners fault.

if i could sum up the points i was trying to make it would sound like this: saying heel toe is important because you need to be in the right gear is a poor argument. you dont need to heel toe to be in the right gear. also because the term right gear is ambiguous enough to make any statement predicated on the term useless. saying heel toe is important because of clutch wear is a poor argument because the clutch wear from a downshift in normal driving (what this thread was originally about) is insignificant. i would guess that on this forum there are more broken motors than broken clutches so if you are worried about a $500 dollar consumable, you are in the wrong car.

with all that said and done, ill heel toe when i find it conducive to the style of driving i am engaged in. i drive a 90whp miata most of the time so i am used to needing 5k rpms to simply move. if i can get by with out a heel toe and am still on the original clutch after 120k miles without feeling the need for it, i dont see the importance of it for regular driving. its simply a luxury.

Are you now satisfied with where you have back pedaled to? or would you like to continue? you still don't understand any of the counter points to your failed logic and no one here is getting any clarification from your nonsense.

[Luis_GT]

Originally Posted by Thavash

Does anyone else who does heel and toe wish the pedals were slightly closer together ? Like maybe on a BMW ?

The1M has the perfect pedal placement for heel and toe... the M3 on the other hand... does not... the gas pedal is way to low compared to the brake pedal making heel toe somewhat hard... especially with the low travelling brake pedal...

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by SkullWorks

Are you now satisfied with where you have back pedaled to? or would you like to continue? you still don't understand any of the counter points to your failed logic and no one here is getting any clarification from your nonsense.

im not back pedaling and i understand what youre saying.

[DeeezNuuuts83]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i would guess that on this forum there are more broken motors than broken clutches so if you are worried about a $500 dollar consumable, you are in the wrong car.

That is not a valid argument. Clutches are consumables that are expected to be replaced at some point during ownership, and engines aren't. And because of that, people are more likely going to post about an engine failure more so than needing to replace their clutch.

Worrying about a "$500 consumable" doesn't mean that you "are in the wrong car," it just means that money doesn't grow on trees. Some people worry about gas prices increasing by 10 cents, even though realistically their lives are affected minimally. But it doesn't mean that they need to ride a bicycle.

There's nothing wrong with doing what you can to delay the need to replace a wear-and-tear item. Otherwise, you might as well not rotate your tires and just do burnouts and drifts on your way to work everyday, if $500 consumables aren't a concern.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by DeeezNuuuts83

That is not a valid argument. Clutches are consumables that are expected to be replaced at some point during ownership, and engines aren't. And because of that, people are more likely going to post about an engine failure more so than needing to replace their clutch.

Worrying about a "$500 consumable" doesn't mean that you "are in the wrong car," it just means that money doesn't grow on trees. Some people worry about gas prices increasing by 10 cents, even though realistically their lives are affected minimally. But it doesn't mean that they need to ride a bicycle.

There's nothing wrong with doing what you can to delay the need to replace a wear-and-tear item. Otherwise, you might as well not rotate your tires and just do burnouts and drifts on your way to work everyday, if $500 consumables aren't a concern.

im not saying it isnt a concern. im just saying that the cost of replacing a clutch isnt a strong enough reason to heel toe. its not even that its $500. clutches wear and im not really sure that not using the heel toe method will save any measurable clutch life. maybe ten percent so youre maybe looking at replacing the clutch months earlier saving $50 worth of use. i dont think using the clutch wear is a valid argument either way.

[DeeezNuuuts83]

But you don't benefit or give anything up by heel-toeing, rev-matching or any of that. At least with tire usage or fuel consumption, you might speed up the process by doing something fun, like competitive driving. It's not like avoiding those driving techniques enhances driving experience in any way.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by DeeezNuuuts83

But you don't benefit or give anything up by heel-toeing, rev-matching or any of that. At least with tire usage or fuel consumption, you might speed up the process by doing something fun, like competitive driving. It's not like avoiding those driving techniques enhances driving experience in any way.

i agree with that. ive only been saying that it isnt needed which was an argument three pages or so when this mess started.

[regal]

Originally Posted by fatoni

im not saying it isnt a concern. im just saying that the cost of replacing a clutch isnt a strong enough reason to heel toe. its not even that its $500. clutches wear and im not really sure that not using the heel toe method will save any measurable clutch life. maybe ten percent so youre maybe looking at replacing the clutch months earlier saving $50 worth of use. i dont think using the clutch wear is a valid argument either way.

Anyone notice how light this clutch is? The pressure plate is weak, it will be the first thing to wear out assuming responsible manual tranny driving whether one heel/toes or not.
So I'm not convinced that heel/toe and rev match are going to wear the clutch quicker over 100k+ miles, the pressure plate is good for x number of clutch pedal depresses...

But as far as those saying heel/toe is some kind of requirement for safety/control of vehicle: This car goes to nearly 57 mph in 2nd gear just throw her in 2nd when cornering, no fancy footwork required.

[headlikeahole]

Always Racecar!

Heel+toe and left foot brake (when applicable) everywhere and always. Is it pointless? yes... Do I care? no.

If I was a rational driver I would be driving a more reasonable car.

[Rejor11]

I don't think I necessarily "heel-toe" around town. I have wide feet though, and I almost ALWAYS rev-match when downshifting. I find it just makes it a smoother transition when I'm slowing down for a stoplight or just downshifting in general.

I do have to say though that when I'm on the track, I have found it easier to rev-match and heel toe.