Heel Toe Around Town?

[jarviz]

I think the only time I ever used it and it when necessary was when I had to slam on the brakes because something happened in front of me and I switched lanes but had to accelerate fast enough out of there so that the car behind wouldn't hit me.

[KKaWing]

Originally Posted by CaptainSlow

I have no clue how to heel toe. Tried a few times and apparently I can't control my foot that way. I try to blip the throttle with my heel and end up stabbing on the brake. So, I usually just try to rev match where/when I can, then brake.

If you can find a huge (and empty, at night or at least when it's closed) costco lot so you can go in a large oval... you can practice 3rd to 2nd shift.

A good crutch I've been taught is to get it in gear first, then do your heel thing. Also, don't necessarily have to use your heel. Ball of foot on brake, pinky toe or right side of foot for gas.

The process goes like this:

(Start braking medium pressure should be more than enough, don't hit the wall though)

1. Clutch in
2. Downshift
3. (small) Blip the throttle with the right side of the foot. (Toyota peddles are really short so heel almost don't work for most people, thanks beige camry drivers.)
4. Release clutch. (Varify your location... so you don't wrap a light pole or hug a wall and stuff...)

Back on topic, sure it is not necessary to perform this technique, but it's fun. Some people can't do it safely or at legal speeds. That is fine, nobody is forcing anyone to do so. Other people can do it without going race-car. By that I mean in *FULL* control, not exceeding the speed limit or "pulling G's"... at all. So why all the talk of this being "dangerous?" If learning, then by all means leave it at the parking lot / abandoned warehouse / industrial park at night etc...

There are situations where this technique is not practical. Perhaps some are taking "race car all the time" to literally? Traffic jams, parking the car at the local mall Saturday afternoon, w/e-else, not a great time to do it. Braking for a long-ish distance and have to drop a few gears say from 60kph to 0? Why not? It does not mean you have to jam hard on the brakes last second... it can be done decelerating normally. Same with getting off the highway, you can still heel toe while keeping revs under 4k easily, all the while decelerating normally.

Is it necessary? No, on the other hand, is it dangerous? No, just because one person cannot do so safely, does not mean another can't.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Um what? Normally I can follow what you're saying, but you lost me here fatoni.

Everyone I know rev-matches on upshifts (i.e., releases the throttle between upshifts) unless they're deliberately powershifting/FFS. The reason you release the throttle between upshifts is to match revs for the next gear.

i guess that sounds confusing. i was at work and it was super busy. all i was trying to say is that it isnt unreasonable to think that the difference in rpms on a downshift isnt significantly greater than the difference in rpms from an upshift. this is more likely true today than ever with shady drive by wire and heavy flywheels. by rev matching on upshifts i was simply saying that if people are going to weight the clutch wear concept so heavily, they would be a hypocrite to ever shift with enthusiasm and preempt the shift before the engine speed matches the drivetrain speed.

i just think what i have said is getting over analyzed and then i get in these circles of responding to partial counter arguments.

[Lauren]

Originally Posted by Porsche

Have you noticed the absence of our learned friend, @Lauren, from the UK?

I expect that he wisely decided to leave these ignorant, rude, disrespectful, and UNSKILLED Americans strictly alone.

There are none so blind as those who WILL NOT see…

'She'!

Tbh I haven't read the thread, but I'm getting the impression I may not be impressed!

What strikes me as odd is the amount of discussion about simply being able to drive a manual on this forum. On the UK forum because 98% or so drive a manual, such discussions never seem to ensue at all. The reason is, people know how to drive a manual.

Nobody in the UK knocks heel and toeing. Some people do it, some don't. In my opinion driving is an art in itself and this means there are a myriad of techniques to learn and develop. I do realise that not everyone is as obsessed as I with such things.

Also as our cars are more expensive in the UK, I think this pushes the average owners age up and you don't get the petty arguments that seem to prevail everywhere on here.

Cheers!

[Lauren]

Funnily enough, my car was at Toyota yesterday for it's first service. I had a decat and over pipe fitted whilst it was in. I fully admit on the way home from work I heel and toe'd approaching every roundabout on the way home, just because it sounded so good with the tad louder exhaust!

I will heel and toe most of the time. Practice makes perfect (it took me a little while to get comfortable with the slightly too high brake pedal) and it smooths your driving. I admit I do it for effect at times, too. But I didn't buy a bright white sports coupe to be a shrinking violet.

[5th 86]

I just worry some ppl with little mt exp will start trying to heal/toe when they dont even know what gear there in by gate feel or know what optimal gear they should be in coming up to a corner. Heal toe is plenty useful but just learning the basics is more important, a fair amount of ppl comming to this car its there first mt. A person with a few month exp isn't ingrained yet with what to do by instinct, nor have the muscle memory of pedal feel,sensitivity or touch. And when you drive an auto you dont really care or notice what the engine sounds like at different rpms so novices can't match revs by sound and feel. Thats why its a bad idea for a novice to start practising h/t on roads, if you want to start practicing at least start in a empty parking lot or something. Don't gamble your car or other ppls lives/property practicing h/t on the streets if you haven't driven tens of thousands of km in a manual, my opinion only.

[Luis_GT]

Originally Posted by Lauren

'She'!

Tbh I haven't read the thread, but I'm getting the impression I may not be impressed!

What strikes me as odd is the amount of discussion about simply being able to drive a manual on this forum. On the UK forum because 98% or so drive a manual, such discussions never seem to ensue at all. The reason is, people know how to drive a manual.

Nobody in the UK knocks heel and toeing. Some people do it, some don't. In my opinion driving is an art in itself and this means there are a myriad of techniques to learn and develop. I do realise that not everyone is as obsessed as I with such things.

Also as our cars are more expensive in the UK, I think this pushes the average owners age up and you don't get the petty arguments that seem to prevail everywhere on here.

Cheers!

'MURICA!

[DeeezNuuuts83]

That's funny, when something like the previous generation M5 got a manual transmission as an option just for our market when we were the ones who asked for it. And the Golf R is offered in the US only with a manual, when the other markets have DSGs.

Don't let the uncommon manual in our typical Accord and Camry fool you.

[Luis_GT]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i guess that sounds confusing. i was at work and it was super busy. all i was trying to say is that it isnt unreasonable to think that the difference in rpms on a downshift isnt significantly greater than the difference in rpms from an upshift. this is more likely true today than ever with shady drive by wire and heavy flywheels. by rev matching on upshifts i was simply saying that if people are going to weight the clutch wear concept so heavily, they would be a hypocrite to ever shift with enthusiasm and preempt the shift before the engine speed matches the drivetrain speed.

i just think what i have said is getting over analyzed and then i get in these circles of responding to partial counter arguments.

You can miss the revs by a few RPMs when you upshift since the engine is slowing down the moment you let off the throttle, if the engine is a bit faster than the gear the engine simply falls to speed faster without much slip as you are helping the engine achieve what it wants, when you downshift you are forcing the engine to do the exact opposite, the engine wants to fall to idle, not go to redline when you let off the throttle

Let me put it in terms you may be able to understand.

Up shift + no gas = RPM drop + RPM Drop, thus it's balanced

Down shift + No gas = RPM increase + RPM Drop, thus it's unbalanced

in order for a downshift to be balanced you need this:

Down shift + Throttle = RPM increase + RPM Increase to make it balanced

Here I'm ignoring the RPM matching, the point is that if you're going in favor of what the engine wants, and the rpm difference is but a few 100 rpms, clutch wear and any jerking from the car is minimized or eliminated if you match the rpms correctly.

If when you upshift you let the engine rpm drop to much, you'll be doing the same thing as a downshift and forcing the engine to do what it doesn't want to do, causing more wear and tear on the clutch and a jerky ride.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Luis_GT

You can miss the revs by a few RPMs when you upshift since the engine is slowing down the moment you let off the throttle, if the engine is a bit faster than the gear the engine simply falls to speed faster without much slip as you are helping the engine achieve what it wants, when you downshift you are forcing the engine to do the exact opposite, the engine wants to fall to idle, not go to redline when you let off the throttle

Let me put it in terms you may be able to understand.

Up shift + no gas = RPM drop + RPM Drop, thus it's balanced

Down shift + No gas = RPM increase + RPM Drop, thus it's unbalanced

in order for a downshift to be balanced you need this:

Down shift + Throttle = RPM increase + RPM Increase to make it balanced

Here I'm ignoring the RPM matching, the point is that if you're going in favor of what the engine wants, and the rpm difference is but a few 100 rpms, clutch wear and any jerking from the car is minimized or eliminated if you match the rpms correctly.

If when you upshift you let the engine rpm drop to much, you'll be doing the same thing as a downshift and forcing the engine to do what it doesn't want to do, causing more wear and tear on the clutch and a jerky ride.

i get it. its just that in normal driving upshifts you are only dealing with a couple hundred rpms. im just saying that its not really necessary for day to day driving. i would even guess that 99% of people dont even know what it is yet they manage somehow. i think the importance of certain things on this forum get blown out of proportion.

[2point0]

I heel/toe gas & clutch. With my left foot. FUK DA BRAKE.

Even on upshifts.

[SkullWorks]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i get it. its just that in normal driving upshifts you are only dealing with a couple hundred rpms. im just saying that its not really necessary for day to day driving. i would even guess that 99% of people dont even know what it is yet they manage somehow. i think the importance of certain things on this forum get blown out of proportion.

No what happens is people like you want to step in and make definitive statements contradictory to logic, then you get butthurt and spend 3 days trying to back pedal out of a misinformed statement, your responses to other people pointing out your flaws in an attempt to disprove the logic i presented you prove you are not well versed enough in what is going on to discuss this topic.

if you understood the difference in decelerating the engine vs decelerating the car (with clutch slip) to match rev's we might be able to get you to understand the difference between upshifting and downshifting. However from here it is apparent I (we) should simply avoid responding to you in technical discussions. Or perhaps you shouldn't shoot from the hip while armchair engineering things you simply don't understand???

[Thavash]

Does anyone else who does heel and toe wish the pedals were slightly closer together ? Like maybe on a BMW ?

[2point0]

Originally Posted by Thavash

Does anyone else who does heel and toe wish the pedals were slightly closer together ? Like maybe on a BMW ?

Yes. I believe I've seen aftermarket pedals with a wider gas pedal for this reason.