Heel Toe Around Town?

[strat61caster]

Now we're getting some good info.

I agree wholeheartedly that the car should be in gear as much as possible while moving (neutral=bad) which makes sense economically and safety.

Guess it's a finesse thing more than a boy-racer thing which is the impression I get whenever a "how do I drive manual?" thread comes up and 20% of the replies are "y r u n0t he3l-to3ing?".

Glad it didn't get too nasty in here and still looking forward to any input.

:happy0180:

[fatoni]

i feel like most everybody is arguing around the topic. heel-toe doesnt have any direct relation to being in the right gear.

[KKaWing]

What happened to doing it because it's fun? The HTA (see location) dictates we have to be in gear while in motion (that means gear engaged, clutch in doesn't count). Now if you like being a bobble head while downshifting / riding the clutch until it is smooth / be so far out of the powerband (applies to me more 'cauz wot in the Versa below 2k = nothing unless 1st gear then you get just a 'lil something) that is totally fine. Some people can be smooth w/o heel-toe, some prefer it... people have different skill sets / muscle memory / abilities. Different strokes for different folks?

All you ft86 guys bought a fun car, why not have some fun? You have to downshift anyways, why not make it smooth? May I reiterate heel-toe =/= necessarily mean jam on brakes + jam on gas? Sure it takes practice, and maybe a new set of peddles . Not everyone has to do it, but for those who do, it doesn't automatically mean they are driving around like manics. Maybe just a little "jerk" for all the noise they (I) make. At least the kids with music blasting in their ears won't just step in front of my moving car (weaksauce justification). Honestly it's just fun. I can do it without having to jam on brakes or rev the piss out of the car so why not (aside from dead at night in a res. neighborhood)?

As for the wear out *insert random part* discussion... it's a car. Things will wear out sooner or later. Step on the clutch / hold the clutch = throw out bearings. Shifting a lot / skipping gears = synchros. Go neutral + brake = pads... Sure different parts cost different money but why get a manual in the first place right?

Oh, it's an internet forum, everyone will defend their positions (to the death?) I don't see the harm in arguing as long as it does not turn into personal attacks.

[Bullnettles]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i feel like most everybody is arguing around the topic. heel-toe doesnt have any direct relation to being in the right gear.

Are you trolling right now?

[chillywilly]

Originally Posted by KKaWing

Oh, it's an internet forum, everyone will defend their positions (to the death?) I don't see the harm in arguing as long as it does not turn into personal attacks.

It's always great to have a healthy discussion, that's why we're all here on the forums, to learn something new about our cars.

It is important to stay in gear and be in control of the car all the time. But everyone have different perceptions of what is "in control", it all comes down to our own driving experience, driving style and driving environment. I live in a grid locked city with a stop light every 500-1000ft so I take it pretty easy shifting between 2k-3k rpm and always separate my shifting and braking.

I think we all agree on one thing though and that is rev matching is a must! It reduces wear on your clutch, engine and transmission and also makes the ride more comfortable. If you can use the more advanced heel-toe technique and its a driving style that suits you, that's great. If not, than keep braking and shifting separate and use one pedal at a time.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Bullnettles

Are you trolling right now?

if you watch a spec miata race, about half of the drivers bother with heel-toe yet they manage to be in the right gear. sometimes im even in the right gear without heel-toe so, i dont think im trolling because i believe that you can be in the right gear without heel-toe and because of that, being in the right gear isnt a good argument for using that method.

saying you should heel-toe because being in the right gear is important is a lot like saying you should take the school bus because an education is important.

[TouchMyHonda]

its nice to set yourself up for the gear you wish to be in as you are entering at turn if need or want be. reckless driving? hardly.

[SkullWorks]

Originally Posted by fatoni

if you watch a spec miata race, about half of the drivers bother with heel-toe yet they manage to be in the right gear. sometimes im even in the right gear without heel-toe so, i dont think im trolling because i believe that you can be in the right gear without heel-toe and because of that, being in the right gear isnt a good argument for using that method.

saying you should heel-toe because being in the right gear is important is a lot like saying you should take the school bus because an education is important.

No you are trolling, you either

1. missed the whole context

2. cant heel toe and are trying to justify that

3. are doing a horrible job of playing devil's advocate.


Let's just say you are doing 67mph on the freeway in 6th gear and you come around a bend and notice that traffic is piling up, so you get on the brakes fairly hard, slowing down to about 45, now at 45 you are in the wrong gear and since you (can't won't or don't ) heel toe you are now in the wrong gear and full of shit,

Thanks for playing.

[SubieNate]

If I'm braking, and I want to continue braking, and I need to be in a lower gear, I heel-toe. End of story on that part of the argument. There's no other way to smoothly continue braking while dropping down a gear or multiple gears. A normal rev-match shift requires that you stop braking momentarily to blip the throttle. This automatically increases your braking distance, reducing safety margins on the road and increasing braking distance (and therefore wasting time) on the track. End of story. Anyone who says that it's just as fast to brake/revmatch/brake as a good heel toe is completely clueless because it's physically impossible to have the same average braking force using that method.

If I need to slow down, especially if it's suddenly (sudden traffic or whatever other cause) I do not want to have to interrupt my braking to shift... I've already outlined why it's better to not leave it in neutral while braking or try to drop it directly into a much lower gear.

Cheers
Nathan

[KKaWing]

Originally Posted by chillywilly

I live in a grid locked city with a stop light every 500-1000ft so I take it pretty easy shifting between 2k-3k rpm and always separate my shifting and braking.

Oh, I hear you. Rush hour sucks. That is definitely a situation where I don't heel toe. In fact I just tend to stay in gear (1st or 2nd, when it gets to 3rd it's not really a jam then, just slow traffic :p) and actually space myself so I don't have to hit the brakes. A study actually showed if people keep tapping on brakes, it'll create a bow wave effect opposite the direction of travel.

Since on the topic of when not to do things, when going downhill on icy-slushy-snowy roads better not downshift. The shift has to be *perfectly* match or else it'll turn it to that clutch dump technique the drifters use, slowing / desyncing the wheel and the road. Not something you want to do on any icy patch of public road. I call it UFO-ing... spinning out?

[Bullnettles]

Originally Posted by SkullWorks

No you are trolling, you either

1. missed the whole context

2. cant heel toe and are trying to justify that

3. are doing a horrible job of playing devil's advocate.


Let's just say you are doing 67mph on the freeway in 6th gear and you come around a bend and notice that traffic is piling up, so you get on the brakes fairly hard, slowing down to about 45, now at 45 you are in the wrong gear and since you (can't won't or don't ) heel toe you are now in the wrong gear and full of shit,

Thanks for playing.

Dammit, stole my thunder! :happy0180: Honestly, though, I don't get where these guys are coming from saying it's not beneficial. I'm dumbfounded.

[bestwheelbase]

Always rev-match. Don't always heel-toe. I take it easy around town, and usually the engine braking from a gentle rev-matched downshift is enough to adjust my speed. I try to maintain momentum and look ahead rather than race to each red light.

[CaptainSlow]

I have no clue how to heel toe. Tried a few times and apparently I can't control my foot that way. I try to blip the throttle with my heel and end up stabbing on the brake. So, I usually just try to rev match where/when I can, then brake.

[SubieNate]

Originally Posted by KKaWing

Oh, I hear you. Rush hour sucks. That is definitely a situation where I don't heel toe. In fact I just tend to stay in gear (1st or 2nd, when it gets to 3rd it's not really a jam then, just slow traffic :p) and actually space myself so I don't have to hit the brakes. A study actually showed if people keep tapping on brakes, it'll create a bow wave effect opposite the direction of travel.

Since on the topic of when not to do things, when going downhill on icy-slushy-snowy roads better not downshift. The shift has to be *perfectly* match or else it'll turn it to that clutch dump technique the drifters use, slowing / desyncing the wheel and the road. Not something you want to do on any icy patch of public road. I call it UFO-ing... spinning out?

I always try to brake as little as possible in traffic. I leave a big space in front of me, leave it in 1st or 2nd and just putt along at as constant a speed as possible. Partly because I'm lazy, partly because it's easier on the clutch, and partly because I think if everyone did that the traffic would naturally clear out quicker. Instead, most people jam right up to the ass of the car in front of them, have to slam on their brakes, and create the bow wave effect you're talking about.

The worst is when someone uses me putting along and keeping things spaced out as an excuse to try and gain a single car length by changing lanes and swerving over in front of me. Then I have to space myself out all over again.

In fact, unless there's a BIG speed difference or a lane closing or major merging traffic, I tend to stick to one lane in heavy traffic. I figure all the switching lanes just makes everything worse on the whole, especially since the lanes tend to leapfrog each other as the traffic moves. (E.G., you switch lanes because x lane is faster, then the lane you were in speeds up and you're right back where your impatient ass started.)

I mentioned the downhill in slippery conditions thing a while back, although under a different context.

I have noticed that I almost always gently heel toe into 2nd, because it seems like the jump from 3rd to 2nd is larger than the jump from 4th to 3rd, so I like to bleed off a bit more speed as I downshift into second to keep from revving up too much when I'm just cruising around. Seems easier on the synchros too.

Nathan