Sonoma Trackday Video (spinout included)

[k33n3r]

Was this with Trackmasters? I was at Laguna Seca yesterday and Doug mentioned a car spinning and the driver didn't go two feet in. Ended up rolling backwards into another car. This was at their last Sonoma event.

[orthojoe]

Originally Posted by k33n3r

Was this with Trackmasters? I was at Laguna Seca yesterday and Doug mentioned a car spinning and the driver didn't go two feet in. Ended up rolling backwards into another car. This was at their last Sonoma event.

Yup. Thankfully that wasn't me. The incident he mentioned was between an F360 and a Cayman. Lots of carnage that day. :-(

[cf6mech]

My thoughts,....wasn't this car set up to oversteer by design for slow speed fun on skinny tires?...don't know where but I remember reading someone going bigger on front sway bar and actual removing rear sway bar to settle this car down to prevent snap oversteer when he was running stickier wider tires.......thoughts anyone?

[orthojoe]

Originally Posted by cf6mech

My thoughts,....wasn't this car set up to oversteer by design for slow speed fun on skinny tires?...don't know where but I remember reading someone going bigger on front sway bar and actual removing rear sway bar to settle this car down to prevent snap oversteer when he was running stickier wider tires.......thoughts anyone?

Oh yeah. I'm not complaining about the oversteer. Not at all. The whole reason I got the car was to learn how to control oversteer. I obviously failed this time around...

[k33n3r]

Originally Posted by orthojoe

Yup. Thankfully that wasn't me. The incident he mentioned was between an F360 and a Cayman. Lots of carnage that day. :-(

Expensive incident.

Your spin was a bit odd. I definitely think being in 3rd gear along with the cold tires contributed to the spin. As somebody else mentioned, there is a slight dip at the apex that helps the car take a set on exit. Once you feel the car set, you can get on the throttle and release the wheel.

[cf6mech]

But at speed and at the limit with skinny tires,...not sure your going to have time to correct....its going to happen very quickly......just my thoughts.....great video btw.

[orthojoe]

Originally Posted by cf6mech

But at speed and at the limit with skinny tires,...not sure your going to have time to correct....its going to happen very quickly......just my thoughts.....great video btw.

Does anyone think the spin was correctable in the right hands?

[track junkie]

Originally Posted by orthojoe

Thanks. Would love to hear your opinion on what happened what could have been done differently.

I'm using project mu club racer pads on the BRZ and PFC08 pads on the spyder. The Project mu pads are arguably overkill for stock tires, but they bite well and never fade.

Thank you, I will try those pads.


The next time you are on the track you will be expecting this and waiting for the rear to step out in every turn, at any moment. When the rear steps out again you will correct instantly with slightly reduced throttle and will keep the yaw smaller.

If the yaw becomes to big, as it did here, or in the rain, you will release the steering wheel and let it spin through your hands to correct faster/easier with slightly reduced throttle and then recover.

This is what I tell myself, I hope it works.

[orthojoe]

Originally Posted by track junkie

Thank you, I will try those pads.


The next time you are on the track you will be expecting this and waiting for the rear to step out in every turn, at any moment. When the rear steps again you will correct instantly with slightly reduced throttle and will keep the yaw smaller.

If the yaw becomes to big, as it did here, or in the rain, you will release the steering wheel and let it spin through your hands to correct faster/easier with slightly reduced throttle and then recover.

This is what I tell myself, I hope it works.

So if you look at my throttle position, I believe it shows that as the rear started to step out, I let off slightly on the throttle, but when the yaw when out of control, I no longer had any throttle pressure.

Am I understanding you correctly that when the rear has stepped out too far, I should still keep light pressure on the throttle, discontinue actively countersteering, and release the wheel?

This is the discussion I was hoping for. Thanks!

[smbstyle]

Originally Posted by orthojoe

Does anyone think the spin was correctable in the right hands?

I think you would have had a better chance stopping the spin by not lifting off the throttle when the back end started to step out. We learned that on the first day at Bondurant. You may have corrected a bit late, but its hard to tell from the video. After a ton of seat time, you'll be able to correct a bit sooner by the "feel" of the car about to oversteer.

[orthojoe]

Originally Posted by smbstyle

I think you would have had a better chance stopping the spin by not lifting off the throttle when the back end started to step out. We learned that on the first day at Bondurant. You may have corrected a bit late, but its hard to tell from the video. After a ton of seat time, you'll be able to correct a bit sooner by the "feel" of the car about to oversteer.

So the reason I didn't keep some pressure on the throttle was that I felt the car was going past the point of the ability to correct. I was told that when you are in this type of situation, to let off the throttle, not continue to put on the pressure. Is this correct?

totally agree that more seat time is need to get a 'feel' for the car.

[orthojoe]

EDIT: so that might have sounded dumb. Yes, of course, if you are going into a full spin, you want 'both feet in' and you are off the throttle. What I'm trying to say is that letting off the throttle (while countersteering) when you are in an oversteer situation will tuck your back end back in quicker and get you under control sooner than keeping on the throttle, which will keep your momentum going in the right direction while still correcting....?

[smbstyle]

Originally Posted by orthojoe

So the reason I didn't keep some pressure on the throttle was that I felt the car was going past the point of the ability to correct. I was told that when you are in this type of situation, to let off the throttle, not continue to put on the pressure. Is this correct?

totally agree that more seat time is need to get a 'feel' for the car.

We did a lot of these exercises at Bondurant on their skidpad, and they would raise the back end of the car a little bit to give it less traction, we'd go around a corner and they let us try what we "thought" we should be doing (before they taught us the proper technique) and every one of us would lift off the throttle when going into the spin, and we'd loop around, even when steering into the slide. So they taught us the technique of just applying light throttle when we began to rotate, and sure enough, we could control the slide, and would not loop it. We also explored the "point of no return" in the slide and I had it almost 90* and was still able to recover; you'd be surprised how much angle you can get and still recover.

[smbstyle]

Originally Posted by orthojoe

EDIT: so that might have sounded dumb. Yes, of course, if you are going into a full spin, you want 'both feet in' and you are off the throttle. What I'm trying to say is that letting off the throttle (while countersteering) when you are in an oversteer situation will tuck your back end back in quicker and get you under control sooner than keeping on the throttle, which will keep your momentum going in the right direction while still correcting....?

No, that is not correct. Letting off the throttle will not bring the back end in quicker; you need to apply light throttle to control the oversteer when the back end steps out. They sat us in the chalk room for an hour and explained the physics behind it, and applying the throttle transferred the weight back to the rear tires, giving it a larger footprint and allowing for more grip. Of couse thats not exactly how they put it, but the general concept. But it works, first hand experience. Not only at the school, but in my SCCA Miata race car at Sebring that saved my ass several times.

Here's a smaller slide in Turn 5 at Sebring that many people will loop it or end up in the grass, but you can hear in this video how I'm staying on the throttle while the back end is rotating out and it brings it back in, along with countersteer:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uez_v1C7dCQ&list=UUI7_3qVwegS7kgSt8P_D3Yw& index=11"]Getting loose in turn 5 at Sebring - YouTube[/ame]