Eneos 0w20

[bluesubie]

chenshuo - Many factors in oil affect fuel economy (like HTHS viscosity) but they could mean little difference to you or I. To a car company with thousands of vehicles, a tiny difference in mpg's means big $$$ when it comes to CAFE credits. Also, an engine typically gets a little better mpg's after 10-15k+ miles.

regal - I presume that you mean to refer to GF-5 since GL5 is a gear lube spec.

-Dennis

[Laika]

Originally Posted by regal

the oil is so clean it looks new, really surprised me.

I was surprised to read this from you because the rest of your post was very good. I don't think oil cleanliness/dirtiness is an indication of anything beyond how well of a job it is doing at cleaning your engine.


Update on my Sustina 0w20 @ ~2500 miles.

The car seems to drive MUCH better when cold with the Sustina than the other oils I tried (amsoil SS, GC, regular Eneos). The engine seems (there's that word again) to rev up much smoother and willingly when the oil hasn't even reached temp. Most will chalk it up to placebo but I'm pretty aware of my car to know that's not the case but it's not something I can really quantify without an oil pressure gauge. Fuel economy during cold driving has also gone up quite a bit too.

I can't really say too much on any differences with driving the car hard while using Sustina. Seems good as usual but on the other hand I haven't really been at the point where I could truly flog my car for long periods of time until recently.

Just picked up some Motul Gear 300 for the diff. Should be a great combo with pentosin in the trans.

[EL_to_TBD]

I could not believe that you could not get Eneos Sustina in Canada so after much research () I found their distributor: http://trinityglory.ca/

They were able to refer me to a location near me that had it. $18/qt though! I think I will still try it for my first change.

So is the Subaru OEM filter the way to go?
Or is there something better?

[bluesubie]

Originally Posted by EL_to_TBD

So is the Subaru OEM filter the way to go?
Or is there something better?

Yes.
No.

-Dennis

[Dezoris]

Sticking with Redline 0w-20, as you can get from Amazon Prime free shipping, and on paper more designed for abuse.

[bluesubie]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

Sticking with Redline 0w-20, as you can get from Amazon Prime free shipping, and on paper more designed for abuse.

Possibly, but this is an apples to oranges comparison IMO. Non API/ILSAC certified racing/street oil with an old school anti-wear additive package versus API SN/ILSAC GF5 oil with a propiertary low ZDDP, no sulfur, anti- wear additive package. Boron also provides anti-wear as well as other additives and base stocks that don't show up in this type of uoa. The Sustina also likely includes the new tri-nuclear moly that has the same friction modification benefits as the old stuff but in much lower doses.
Molybdenum Additive Technology for Engine Oil Applications.

Looking at your application, it appears that you're probably not concerned about running a GF5 oil anyway so the RL is probably a great choice!

-Dennis

[Dezoris]

Originally Posted by bluesubie

Possibly, but this is an apples to oranges comparison IMO. Non API/ILSAC certified racing/street oil with an old school anti-wear additive package versus API SN/ILSAC GF5 oil with a propiertary low ZDDP, no sulfur, anti- wear additive package. Boron also provides anti-wear as well as other additives and base stocks that don't show up in this type of uoa. The Sustina also likely includes the new tri-nuclear moly that has the same friction modification benefits as the old stuff but in much lower doses.
Molybdenum Additive Technology for Engine Oil Applications.

Looking at your application, it appears that you're probably not concerned about running a GF5 oil anyway so the RL is probably a great choice!

-Dennis

If and when I go back to a stock car I would not hesitate to switch to Sustina for all the reasons stated here.

[Laika]

Thanks for posting that UOA on the redline @Dezoris. That UOA on the sustina, that's not from your car, correct? Surprised to see neither have an OCI listed.

@bluesubie- Thank you for keeping me company in this thread and providing actual information

[regal]

Originally Posted by bluesubie

As zinc, phosphorus, and moly are being reduced in engine oils, additive companies are increasing other multi-functional additives (calcium, boron), coming out with new forms of moly (see below), using better viscosity modifiers, using non-metallic additives, and making oil from better base stocks.

Eneos and Eneos Sustina are not "unproven". They both meet the specs required by the API (SN) and ILSAC (GF5).

-Dennis

The problem is a UOA can't analyze the levels of these new non-metallic FM & AW packages. But after reading more about the Eneos S it looks like they have a good approach.

Its going to be very important with our engines to keep the combustion chamber clean and free of build up. The back of the intake valve DI issue should be solved with DS4 but the specialized high compression combustion must be kept very clean.

So I think the modern additives of the Eneos may be a better strategy than the old school heavy doping of the red-line and motul 300v package. Plus the Redline 0W-20 is nearly a 30 weight oil. This FA20 doesn't like cold thick oil at startup, its very obvious driving it, I've seen studies that show over 75% of engine wear occurs at startup over the course of an engines lfe so a true 0W20 with a high VI should be good for reducing that wear.

However now Mazda has a new GF 5 High Moly 0w-20 specifically released for their DI sky-active engines. Now we know the Enoes S has the tri-nuclear moly, but Mazda's approach looks different with regard to using high Moly concentrations. Mazda has a lot of experience with DI engines and an oil specifically engineered for DI deserves consideration.

I guess my 0w20 oil choice for this FA20 comes down to the Eneos S or the Mazda high Moly. I am leaning to the Eneos, low sulfur, advanced chemistry additives which allow lower concentrations should all lead to a cleaner combustion chamber in this engine.

Pricing the Eneos S comes out to about $15 more over the TGMO or Mazda (shipped), about the same as redline.

[bluesubie]

Originally Posted by Laika

Thanks for posting that UOA on the redline @Dezoris. That UOA on the sustina, that's not from your car, correct? Surprised to see neither have an OCI listed.

@bluesubie- Thank you for keeping me company in this thread and providing actual information

Note the "Virgin" comments. Those are actually VOA's (Virgin/Unused Oil Analysis) and not UOA's.

Originally Posted by regal

So I think the modern additives of the Eneos may be a better strategy than the old school heavy doping of the red-line and motul 300v package. Plus the Redline 0W-20 is nearly a 30 weight oil.

Wow, did you have a revelation or what?

-Dennis

[Laika]

Well that explains a whole lot

[regal]

Originally Posted by bluesubie

Possibly, but this is an apples to oranges comparison IMO. Non API/ILSAC certified racing/street oil with an old school anti-wear additive package versus API SN/ILSAC GF5 oil with a propiertary low ZDDP, no sulfur, anti- wear additive package. Boron also provides anti-wear as well as other additives and base stocks that don't show up in this type of uoa. The Sustina also likely includes the new tri-nuclear moly that has the same friction modification benefits as the old stuff but in much lower doses.
Molybdenum Additive Technology for Engine Oil Applications.

Looking at your application, it appears that you're probably not concerned about running a GF5 oil anyway so the RL is probably a great choice!

-Dennis

My change of heart came after looking at the service manual. This engine is literally GASKET CITY. I have never seen an engine with so many critical gasket. I'm not saying that redline will cause problems but Subaru's are notorious for sensitivity to gaskets breaking down from such odd things as a bad ground causing electrolysis of the coolant and attacking gaskets/seals.

The Sustina likely has the advantage of an advanced additive pack (which unfortunately can't be read by a Blackstone OA mass spec) but being based on one of the most advanced GrIII's which aren't as polar as the base stock used in Redline, I think its the safer choice.

Just an old ChE's perspective, I would really like to spend a month with an NMR to find out what is really in Sustina but that would cost thousands of dollars.

The other option that makes sense is the SkyActive oil made for Mazda specifically for DI motors.

[bluesubie]

Originally Posted by regal

My change of heart came after looking at the service manual. This engine is literally GASKET CITY. I have never seen an engine with so many critical gasket. I'm not saying that redline will cause problems but Subaru's are notorious for sensitivity to gaskets breaking down from such odd things as a bad ground causing electrolysis of the coolant and attacking gaskets/seals.

The Sustina likely has the advantage of an advanced additive pack (which unfortunately can't be read by a Blackstone OA mass spec) but being based on one of the most advanced GrIII's which aren't as polar as the base stock used in Redline, I think its the safer choice.

Just an old ChE's perspective, I would really like to spend a month with an NMR to find out what is really in Sustina but that would cost thousands of dollars.

The other option that makes sense is the SkyActive oil made for Mazda specifically for DI motors.

So are you more concerned about RL's POE base stocks or the high ZDDP affect on gaskets? I probably wouldn't be too concerned since RL (like most companies) would balance out the negative effect of esters with a dose of PAO's.

I have had my share of gaskets replaced on Subaru's though. A '99 Outback had both valve cover gaskets replaced, my Forester XT had the right (turbo side) vc gasket replaced, and my '99 RS is weeping oil from the oil pan. All at around 120k miles. The Outback and RS got mainly regular conventional oil until around 70-80k miles and then got High Mileage conventional or synthetic blend after that. The Forester gets mainly any non-GF 5 synthetic.

Maybe I should just run GF5 oils in everything (like Sustina 5W-30 to be on topic )! Perhaps the improvement in GF5 specs for seals will also benefit gaskets.

Seal compatibility performance is not new to lubricants.

OEMs have their own seal compatibility specifications for their factory fill and service oils, however there are GF-4 oils in the market today that do not meet the targeted seals compatibility performance. OEMs are looking for a performance upgrade so that all oils meet the targeted elastomer compatibility performance.

In GF-5, the compilation of the OEM specs is now becoming a part of the ILSAC/API GF-5 specification. In addition, they are adding a new seal material commonly used by OEMs

Oil leakage can result from a combination of chemical incompatibility between the oil; aging of the seal material and mechanical wear on the seal material. By increasing the number of seal materials evaluated and a more stringent test, elastomer compatibility can be assured.

In addition preventing oil leaks is good for the environment and it keeps the oil where it is needed most - in the engines lubrication system.

The new performance requirement of Seal Compatibility will have a measurable impact on the formulating challenge of GF-5.

http://www.gf-5.com/the_story/performance/

I believe that you would be surprised at the amount of technical information that you can get about Sustina if you contact Eneos USA. Of course, they probably won't go into too much detail about the W Base. Red Line is also very good about providing technical information.

-Dennis

[regal]

Originally Posted by bluesubie

So are you more concerned about RL's POE base stocks or the high ZDDP affect on gaskets?

The polar base and the lack of GF-5 additive pack make the POE base oils a little too risky for me on long term use. I think with this engine gasket failure, DI issues, and hot spots will determine the engine life far sooner than any increased wear that a lower ZDDP level from GF-5 can affect our engines.

Also with all the issues being reported with high oil temperatures the Eneos 0w-20 GF5's very high VI should help over 0W-20 RL which is really closer to a 30 weight for DD (track/racing is "different".). I know it sounds counter intuitive to a racer that a lower viscosity oil is better for fighting heat but I am referring to daily driving. With this FA20 we need as much oil flow over thru the heads as we can get, the Eneos looks like the best choice the more I research our FA20's design and vulnerabilities. I just wish Amazon would keep it in stock.