Toyobaru Vs. Volkswagen GTi?

[Ryephile]

I owned a '10 GTI for a short while as I was searching for my TDI. Fundamentally they're the same car, with basically just the engine being different. The engine, however, makes all the difference. The GTI might've had decent pace, but it sounded coarse, harsh, and uninviting. It sounded and felt like it would rather commit suicide than be a good driving partner. I couldn't bond with the car solely from the engine character. The heavy unsprung mass from the suspension also gave the car a clompy, awkwardly footed feeling. The TDI is much lighter on its feet [lighter wheels and brakes], but its engine is also much more interesting, fun, and soulful. It's slower overall pace is more than made redundant by the fun interaction with the engine. As such, the GTI, while the jack of all trades, is definitely the master of none.

Originally Posted by ryude

I have a GTI, it has a lot of body roll in the corners and there is tons of wheel hop in first and second gear if you try to use power in a turn. It's ok I guess, not a sports car but a sporty hatch.

What model year? The Mk6 has very well controlled body motion, though it still has some wheel hop when you drive it like a retard.

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

A comparable car would be MINI Coupe S 2 seater or even the Cooper S. Don't let the 180hp and fwd fool you. At WOT it hits like 205 tq with overboost at 1600rpm holding off til like 4500rpm where HP takes over. The are fast cars that handle beautifully. *Note I'm biased having owned 2 MINIs and still currently own one..

I'd also like to mention that a perfect new compact car garage would be Lotus Elise, BRZ/FRS and MINI Coupe S.. all that is missing from this equation is a new awd, lightweight, turbo car.

Ughk, have you actually driven the MINI Coupe? It's the worst handling MINI, and the worst R56 derivation, ever. Dead steering feel but still torque steers, twitchy chassis, yet understeers madly when driven cleanly. It is an embarrassment to all GP's and R50/53's around the world. The Countryman All4 is fun; the Coupe is frustrating. Who cares that the engine has some torque once you push the sport button and smash the pedal to the floor and eventually the turbo catches wind of your intentions. The chassis stinks. Case closed. Oh, not to mention the Coupe is completely absurd looking. Styled after the designers' son wearing a backwards baseball cap? This might've been slightly cool for a minute in the 90's, but not now. The only new MINI worth buying right now is the Countryman All4, and that's only out of desperation for brand loyalty, not because it's genuinely good.


So, back to the GTI. No, it's not competition to the FR-S/BRZ. The GTI is for people that are willing to give up connection and fun for a bigger box that can haul a bunch of stuff, and 4 people comfortably. It's no sports car.

[ryude]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

So, back to the GTI. No, it's not competition to the FR-S/BRZ. The GTI is for people that are willing to give up connection and fun for a bigger box that can haul a bunch of stuff, and 4 people comfortably. It's no sports car.

Exactly! The GTI is not a sports car, never will be. People saying that the MK6 doesn't have body roll never owned one.

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by ryude

Exactly! The GTI is not a sports car, never will be. People saying that the MK6 doesn't have body roll never owned one.

erm, it doesn't have much body roll. Certainly not much compared to most cars. Even then, the GTI handles quite well, but it's not all that involving behind the wheel. Not sure what your point is anyway; body roll is not an indication of performance or grip, just suspension movement. The Lotus Elise has a ton of body roll with the standard suspension, way more than the Mk6 GTI.

[ryude]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

erm, it doesn't have much body roll. Certainly not much compared to most cars. Even then, the GTI handles quite well, but it's not all that involving behind the wheel. Not sure what your point is anyway; body roll is not an indication of performance or grip, just suspension movement. The Lotus Elise has a ton of body roll with the standard suspension, way more than the Mk6 GTI.

Body roll is an indication of chassis rigidity, which does indicate handling performance.

Body roll means the chassis is flexing, which means the weight is transferring to one side, which means you have reduced traction on 2 of your wheels in a turn.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by ryude

Body roll is an indication of chassis rigidity, which does indicate handling performance.

Body roll means the chassis is flexing, which means the weight is transferring to one side, which means you have reduced traction on 2 of your wheels in a turn.

i think we just found the wrongest words ever typed on a forum.

thats not how it works. ryephile explained how roll is a function of moving parts in a suspension and weight transfer causes roll not the other way around so even if you do get rid of roll you didnt get rid of weight transfer. the only downside of roll i can think of is that as you go farther away from the resting point, your suspension settings can start doing some strange things

[3scapist]

I notice a lot of GTI's (mostly driven by kids working at mcdonalds and other dead end jobs) Wheel hop quite a bit when changing gears. I hope these cars don't do that, such an annoying sound.

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by ryude

Body roll is an indication of chassis rigidity, which does indicate handling performance.

Body roll means the chassis is flexing, which means the weight is transferring to one side, which means you have reduced traction on 2 of your wheels in a turn.

Erm....no, sorry that's not right whatsoever.


Body roll is a function of the suspensions' roll center and the cumulative effect of all the force vectors acting upon the suspension as a result of a certain amount of lateral acceleration. A suspension can be designed to give anywhere between significant body roll, zero body roll, and negative body roll [the latter usually needing active components]. Actual chassis strength does play a role, but it is very marginal. For example, an R53 MINI Cooper body is claimed to be 50,000N/° [just a factoid I remember]. The same car has a front spring rate of 225 Lb/In. It's tough to make direct correlations, but compressing the suspension one inch equates to stressing the chassis just 7% the torque needed to flex the chassis 1 degree.

In this example, no amount of available suspension travel will ever stress the body so it'll flex 1 degree.

Of course, in the real world, there's also anti-roll bars to add to the wheel rate, and people jumping their car off mountain tops or whatever and bottoming out the suspension. In reality, the chassis will get more abuse, but in modern cars with very stiff unibodies and monocoques, chassis flex is a virtual non-issue.

[ryude]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

Erm....no, sorry that's not right whatsoever.


Body roll is a function of the suspensions' roll center and the cumulative effect of all the force vectors acting upon the suspension as a result of a certain amount of lateral acceleration. A suspension can be designed to give anywhere between significant body roll, zero body roll, and negative body roll [the latter usually needing active components]. Actual chassis strength does play a role, but it is very marginal. For example, an R53 MINI Cooper body is claimed to be 50,000N/° [just a factoid I remember]. The same car has a front spring rate of 225 Lb/In. It's tough to make direct correlations, but compressing the suspension one inch equates to stressing the chassis just 7% the torque needed to flex the chassis 1 degree.

In this example, no amount of available suspension travel will ever stress the body so it'll flex 1 degree.

Of course, in the real world, there's also anti-roll bars to add to the wheel rate, and people jumping their car off mountain tops or whatever and bottoming out the suspension. In reality, the chassis will get more abuse, but in modern cars with very stiff unibodies and monocoques, chassis flex is a virtual non-issue.

Agree to disagree, everyone on the internet has an opinion. You have yours and I have mine.

[Ryephile]

I'm open to your technical explanation regarding how chassis flex is a greater factor in vehicle control than suspension articulation geometry.

[random]

Originally Posted by ryude

Agree to disagree, everyone on the internet has an opinion. You have yours and I have mine.

No need to be ignorant; the definition of body roll isn't about opinion. Try: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_roll

You'll find that chassis rigidity is not even mentioned (because it's largely irrelevant).

BTW, this is way

[Henwee]

I believe any average buyer will cross-shop and compare the FRS with the GTI/GC/MiniS due to the pricing. Only the hardcore car enthusiasts will not think of cross-shopping between them. FRS is a pure sport car based and meant for the track to enjoy. GTI is more of a 'sporty' practical hatch meant for the city road. It is great to dart in and out of traffic with the torque and short body.

I went from a 06 impreza to a GTI and the first thing I noticed was the body roll. It took me 1 month to control the amount of roll felt by adjusting the steering and gearing. Just need to adapt to it.

Right now I'm beating myself over and over if I'm ready to leave practicality all behind and jump to a FRS. At heart, I just need a daily driver and I don' track

[coyote]

Originally Posted by ryude

Agree to disagree, everyone on the internet has an opinion. You have yours and I have mine.

I agree.

[86'd]

I think just a bit of seat time in both and you'll strongly go one way or the other.

I'm thinking that the FR-S will be more like the S2000 and less like a Mini Cooper S (I've owned both). And one of the only reasons the FR-S will be cross-shopped with cars like the GTI is because of the price point and the availability of an automatic.

Things like ingress/egress and the fact that you'll have to rev the FR-S to go anywhere starkly contrasts with the more upscale interior and easier to live with powerband of the GTI.

I'm sure the GTI is great, but I've always liked high strung engines and a low seating position, not to mention RWD; so the GTI was never on my list.

[MRZ415]

Wow, so much VW people up in here...
I am almost shocked... While the GTI is a good spunky
daily driver ... its still an FF while the Subaru BRZ/Scion FRS is an FR

Not saying the GTI is a bad car... its a sporty hatchback daily driver which is
rather frugal... heck I drive its even more frugal cousin the TDI.