FRS vs BMW e46 M3. Which to buy?

[arsen89]

Originally Posted by 86fanatic

Not to be the negative voice of reason in this thread, but it seems incredibly silly to me how many new graduates get a somewhat decent first job and jump immediately into a 50k+ car purchase. Buying an expensive car isn't "living life", it's more "flaunting wealth" then anything, especially if you don't use it for it's intended purpose.

I owned a Cayman S for a few years, and it was more power then I needed, and the maintenance costs really make you question the decision to tie up so much money into a material object. I imagine an M3 would be similar.

With the 30k you are about to blow on a car, you could travel the world, you can take several high performance driving class lessons, you can have you choice of live experiences.

As a new graduate getting a start in the world, I'd recommend experiencing things first while you're young, because you can buy expensive things at any age. Missing out on 30k worth of life experience can impact the rest of your life, and I don't consider driving around in a 50k car life experience.

Just my two cents, I won't say anything more, but just something to think about.

You make some really good points. But i do believe that everybody has different choices and opinions. I've been lucky to have parents that worked hard and where able to send me on a few trips during my summers in college and went on a few with them when I was younger. I do love to travel and experience new things.

But I do understand and respect your view. I do agree that there many guys our age who would much rather have a nice car, than a nice house or like you said experience the world. Personally, being an enthusiast, I dont see 25k on a car that you can track a poor choice to spend money on. Like I said my parents gave me some neat life experiences. Yes my dad is the gearhead and my mom is the one that loves to travel. Believe me if If I had not had that experience, I would not be posting this thread right now.

Verdict, I do agree with you...but it comes down to the individual, but that is what make life great no? The individualism in everybody.

[arsen89]

Originally Posted by justaquestion

In the USA, for your average person, driving a car is a part of everyday life. I understand what your saying, but I think it just comes down to preference. I myself, don't see anything wrong with buying a car you want, when you have to drive it every single day. Just like when I buy toothpaste, I spend the extra money on the one that tastes best, because I use it everyday.

Some peoples passion for cars, is just a great as other peoples passion for traveling.

Not to mention, with any decent job, you are only granted xx days a year for vacation. Last year I went to Czech, and then Ukraine on vacation (wife is from Ukraine) for 20 days, and it didn't even cost us 6k. Not even close, and we were eating out A LOT.

Completely agree, but yes to each their own.

[arsen89]

Thanks for all the input guys

Hope this thread helps others see the different opinions on these two cars and answers questions that I had at first.

[86'd]

Originally Posted by DeeezNuuuts83

Exactly. Not all used cars are bad, as whoever bought my previous Evo was lucky, since used ones that were still 100% bone stock weren't common then and far less common now.


That's crazy... but also a perfect example of when buying used can be more of a curse. And seeing how you seem to be a pretty smart guy, I'm sure that you didn't find any indications upon vehicle purchase that the car was going to be problematic.

Yeah I went into it thinking maintenance was going to be higher than a Civic, and did research on any major problems and the car checked out.

I searched forums and nothing really stood out as major. So it was kinda expected, but not really. If that makes any sense.

We had the car for about 25,000 miles and only two years. Most of the problems started popping up at 80k.

Sure we could have kept it, but there were things looming, like tires and supercharger maintenance, and fuel pump and little things like the electrics that I was kinda worried about.

We needed a bigger car anyway and ended up getting my wife a Prius.

To relate this to the OP, I guess ask yourself if you'll love the car that much to keep it up. Being a Honda guy most of my life, I personally was tired of it.

[thillskier]

The e30 or e36 M3 is a much better comparable. HP and weight are equal almost in FR-s and E30 M3 (plus cheaper to buy, and appreciating RAPIDLY!!!

E36, waay underappreciated, IMHO (maybe cause I just bought myself one! hehe! Paul Walker is a BIG fan, and owns 7 personally (csl's, I know, but still, e36 are FUN! IMHO! GREATEST value AVAILABLE IMHO today! Also greatest handling car PERIOD, (at ANY price) in 1996 through at least 1998, according to MT, C and D, R & T, etc, etc! Pretty hiigh praise!

Its EASY to work on, and (I MUST admit) I once bought and believed the "high maintainance cost BS after 100K myself, even advised strongly, and ex GF, to sell her 100k 635! (I feel BAD STILL about that one! Amazing good driving car, even at 110K in 1996...
Love the FR-s/BR-Z also tho..Would definitely buy one if I had $ and priorities allowed! I need funds for inventory now, and the M3 e36 puts a HUGE grin everytime esp when I remember I paid 5500! for it (+ 1000so far fpr RTAB's, FCA (and BJoints), FCAB's, new sport seats (and mounts/sliders)Trans and engine mounts, etc, etc (all well documented on forums). HOWEVER, its EASY and VERY logically laid out to access and repair. Slowlybuying up FI parts for next year? 350 rwhp fast as any new car, but better handler than most, under 10,000! drives like new, car. yes, its a bit dated, looks wise, but IMHO, still bad ass, and best handling car I ever owned.

Next new car would be FR-s or BR-Z (if available..they are waaay scarce around here !!)
Guess its awesome to have choices! and lately, NO options! until FR-s and BR-Z came along! What can touch a AVO turboed "FRZ" for 30,000!! new, OR used, even? NADA, ZIP, IMHO! I'd go for AVO FR-S/Z myself before e46+ BMW, but I've driven NEITHER!! BRZ?S or M!! Both would be FUN at tail!! for sure!

[thillskier]

Great post re priorities of spending! I'm 56, and I survived the 2008 BS as a contractor developer. When I was just graduated I bought some land, lived in a shitty trailer till I built a small (24 x 16 on pilings shop below, house. Packed with insulation, and enjoyed 25-35.00 power bills, no insurance pmts, and seeing my land go up up, and up till I sold in 2002, 21 yrs after purchase for a nice profit, and lived free for 21 yrs as a bonus. Also, since it was I 65 frontage, leased billboards that netted me 2500 a month (still have leases, and is my income now and "retirement")! Its TOUGH! but every cent invested in LAND (lost my ass in all else!) but thats ME!! paid out (and other properties did as well)!

I drove crap trucks (reliable) but not new or nice till 10 yrs out. Believe it or no, but there are plenty of really hot, SMART women who are amazingly savvy re land etc....and investment..YRMV!
Just sayin! Oh, and GL to all! Be safe! When old, all those "minor injuries" are a BITCH!, and cause ISSUES! hehe!

[suaveflooder]

Originally Posted by thillskier

The e30 or e36 M3 is a much better comparable. HP and weight are equal almost in FR-s and E30 M3 (plus cheaper to buy, and appreciating RAPIDLY!!!

E36, waay underappreciated, IMHO (maybe cause I just bought myself one! hehe! Paul Walker is a BIG fan, and owns 7 personally (csl's, I know, but still, e36 are FUN! IMHO! GREATEST value AVAILABLE IMHO today! Also greatest handling car PERIOD, (at ANY price) in 1996 through at least 1998, according to MT, C and D, R & T, etc, etc! Pretty hiigh praise!

Its EASY to work on, and (I MUST admit) I once bought and believed the "high maintainance cost BS after 100K myself, even advised strongly, and ex GF, to sell her 100k 635! (I feel BAD STILL about that one! Amazing good driving car, even at 110K in 1996...
Love the FR-s/BR-Z also tho..Would definitely buy one if I had $ and priorities allowed! I need funds for inventory now, and the M3 e36 puts a HUGE grin everytime esp when I remember I paid 5500! for it (+ 1000so far fpr RTAB's, FCA (and BJoints), FCAB's, new sport seats (and mounts/sliders)Trans and engine mounts, etc, etc (all well documented on forums). HOWEVER, its EASY and VERY logically laid out to access and repair. Slowlybuying up FI parts for next year? 350 rwhp fast as any new car, but better handler than most, under 10,000! drives like new, car. yes, its a bit dated, looks wise, but IMHO, still bad ass, and best handling car I ever owned.

Next new car would be FR-s or BR-Z (if available..they are waaay scarce around here !!)
Guess its awesome to have choices! and lately, NO options! until FR-s and BR-Z came along! What can touch a AVO turboed "FRZ" for 30,000!! new, OR used, even? NADA, ZIP, IMHO! I'd go for AVO FR-S/Z myself before e46+ BMW, but I've driven NEITHER!! BRZ?S or M!! Both would be FUN at tail!! for sure!

My buddy just bought an E36 M the other week and we detailed it last monday. I will say, I agree with you. The car is WAY under appreciated. He currently has a stripped down E92 M3 that is is about to sell because he can't see having that much money tied up in a car. The E36 pulls harder than the FRS, it more comfortable, cheaper, and gets similar gas mileage. He sent me a picture with "consumption 27mpg" this morning. Right now I average about 28.5mpg.

The catch is finding a clean one. He got lucky. guy bought it new 14 years ago, has all the records and only mod was coilovers.

If you can find a well maintained one, for the value, it will be hard to beat :happy0180:

[Ganthrithor]

Originally Posted by arsen89

I think my main concern with the M3 is the cost of parts and tires, etc. And while the FRS is a great car, IMO its just doesnt have the extra power and feel that an M3 has, although it is still a great car. Guess I would have to test drive one. Heard lot of people are falling for the FRS after the first test drive.

This is exactly why I got a BRZ instead of an E46 M3 or used 135/335i. That and the lighter weight had its appeal.

If you end up making a bunch of money later, you can always sell the FR-S and buy something more maintenance-intensive / expensive. I plan on buying an older 911 at some point, but now is not the time.

I'm not sure about long-term reliability on the FA20 (although people are saying it seems pretty bulletproof), but gas mileage is really quite good. I've been beating on mine and it still claims to be averaging 26mpg. Not bad.

[thillskier]

Why the e46 M3? The e36 is much closer weight wise to FR-s/BR-Z and waay cheaper now!
Also, simpler to work on, cheaper parts to repair/upgrade, last BMW with hydraulic steering, gets similar mileage (mine routinely gets 28 hwy mpg), and if I find a deal on a 6 speed and swap, will get 36mpg hwy forums promise (yeah I know, so even 33mpg is great!) And for $10,000 will have tuned, FI, 350whp like new BMW M3 e36. All CAB's done (upgraded to urethane, as well as engine and tranny mounts, cooling system replaced with aluminum lifetime stuff, new struts and shocks, and other maintainance done to bring up to as new spec. Yes, its got 165,000 miles, but runs perfect, compression is at "new" spec, and I feel confident it will last me the rest of my life, if I want it that long...If I had $ and was buying a new car, however, it would definitely be FR-S Br-Z and fi it (avo or Accelerated performance, probably). For same $, it would be HARD to not buy a super clean e30 M3 and watch it go up in value every year. I could buy, sway a s52 and fi it for the same 30,000 as a new 86 fi'ed....just sayin... Nice to have so many GREAT CHOICES!!

[thillskier]

Re Vanos issues. The repair for the single vanos (e36) is 31.00 for the parts and is well documented on boards (with videos). The e46 is the same except it has both intake and exhaust vanos, so same repair X 2 parts pkg's and side by side on engine, so maybe add 1 hour? for second vanos dissasembly and to reassembe...The O rings BMW used/uses are not oil/fuel resistant, so harden and degrade within 30,000 miles or so. When this happens, it by passes the oil pressure that moves the cams forward or backward to increase torque and fuel economy over the entire rpm range of operation. When the seal fails, it simply looses power and torque (and resulting fuel economy) over time gradually. Repair makes a very noticable difference in torque and throttle roll on from as low as 2000 rpm!, and makes for a harder "hit" at 4500 rpm when the high rpm retard kicks in for another 15+ hp!

[f0rge]

I owned a 2004 E46 M3 outside of warranty from 2009 to 2012, just over 3 years total.

I loved that car to death and I still miss it dearly to this day, the S54 is one of the sweetest engines ever made. The car was also much more practical than my FRS although less "sharp".

The maintenance can be a bit shocking, compared to the FRS it could even be considered ridiculous, so you have to be aware and plan for it. Never take your car to a dealership, join some local forums and find a local BMW specialist, I did and he was 50-75% cheaper than going to the dealer and in my opinion did better work because he cared about his business and reputation. The big thing to watch out for is the "Inspection" services which can run upwards of $1500 (more like $3000 at a dealership) and require the car to stay at the shop for the whole day (sometimes overnight). However these services are quite comprehensive and ensure the car is in proper working order.

The car itself was great, very little went wrong when I had it, 1 seized caliper, 1 alternator replacement and I had to do the rear trailing arm bushings.

I never had any reservations taking the car on long trips or to the local autocross, it was solid and competent at everything it did. I miss my car to this day and if there weren't so many cars on my "own before i die" list I wouldn't hesitate to get another one.

[schlomo]

I never had (envied those that did have) an E46 M3 but I owned a 2003 E46 330ci for 3 years. It was an amazingly fun car to drive and Germans really know suspension geometry. But.. I wouldn't buy another German car at gunpoint. I was young and thought all the talk about the maintenance bills wouldn't apply to me as much since I do most maintenance and repairs myself.

The real killer was the time and effort put into it, not the money. Even now that I could more easily afford the maintenance, I can't justify buying European because of the inconvenience factor. Their vehicles are probably more reliable now but they WILL fail more often than an otherwise comparable Japanese car. I'm a firm believer that 'time is our greatest commodity' and with a family and demanding work hours it's hard to rationalize. Even if all the maintenance was payed for, just the inconvenience of having to take it to the dealer every couple months is enough to put me off. /rant

[Ganthrithor]

Originally Posted by f0rge

They're just such awesome-looking cars. I don't know exactly what it is about them, but they just scream motorsports for some reason. Even as a kid, knowing nothing at all about cars, you'd see an E46 M3 on the road and be like, "Holy shit, that car is smokin'." I always wanted a sort of Silverstone Grey one...

Sadly it seems like manuals are getting harder to find. When I was looking I found a ton of SMGs, but very few sticks.

[JW89225]

I went for the FR-S at the time, but now thinking back I should have gone for the E46 M3. The one I looked at was a Alpine White/Fox Red interior too... would have made a perfect match for my E92 Alpine White/Fox Red... Can't beat having the last NA Straight 6 M3 and the only NA V8 M3 in the stable together. Mind you, he listed for $32,000 and I paid $32,500 for the FR-S after tax, warranty etc.