STi owner (now BRZ) jumping in late

[Xenocide117]

This thread now reminds me of this. Off the rails a bit...

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vouI55GAx8"]Futurama best scene ever - YouTube[/ame]

Congratulations on your new BRZ! I'm jelly...

[iLuveKetchup]

Originally Posted by mav1178

Relative to WHAT?

The most recent "entry level sports car" weighed 3100lbs (350Z), and compared with that this car is much more nimble/fun to drive.

If the car is overweight, how can it weigh less? 2500lbs? If that is the goal, what can be done to save 200lbs, and keep the cost of the car the same?

I don't think this statement is thought out properly in context.

-alex

Relative to a Miata & s2k. For example, the s2k has heavy chassis bracing to account that it is a convertible. Why is a fixed roof car with roughly the same dimensions weigh so much?? Answer is new safety standards. Unfortunately it's heavy for what it is. Just IMO. I think anything over 2700lbs are boats.

Edit: sorry OP didn't mean to derail your thread. Congrats on the BRZ!!!

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by mav1178

The most recent "entry level sports car" weighed 3100lbs (350Z), and compared with that this car is much more nimble/fun to drive.

-alex

LOL, come on man, a 350Z is more like 3300lbs

Yeah, seriously for the price of the car, no one should be complaining.

Here's my beef. I don't care about the fog lights, LED DRLs, heated seats, leather/alcantara seats, keyless entry, dual climate control, touchscreen nav/bluetooth stereo. I'd trade out all that crap for another 30-50hp from the factory. Subaru offers all these "luxury" items for a sports car, but don't offer more power, which is more in line with what people buying a sports car might want.

[autobrz]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

I'd trade out all that crap for another 30-50hp from the factory. Subaru offers all these "luxury" items for a sports car, but don't offer more power, which is more in line with what people buying a sports car might want.

I don't think 30-50hp out of a N/A 2-liter while meeting OEM intake and exhaust noise + emissions standards will be very fun. It would be very peaky and less responsive at lower speeds.

Personally I like all the modern conveniences the brz comes with. I drive it daily and plan to take some long trips in it. If the car had 50 more hp with the same trim level and cost 10k more, I probably would not have bought it.

[WolfpackS2k]

No reason it couldn't have a 2.5 liter engine.

And $10k for 50 horsepower, really? That's the sort of rip off only idiots pay for. (or Mini enthusiasts)

[autobrz]

a 2.5L costing 5k more is okay in my book but that doesn't fly with Scion's target market. Let's see what they do with the STI. I hope it doesn't lose any torque anywhere compared to the base BRZ.

[dsgerbc]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

I don't care about the fog lights, LED DRLs, heated seats, leather/alcantara seats, keyless entry, dual climate control, touchscreen nav/bluetooth stereo. I'd trade out all that crap for another 30-50hp from the factory. Subaru offers all these "luxury" items for a sports car, but don't offer more power, which is more in line with what people buying a sports car might want.

Yes, more PAWAH, more GRIP, lol. The car was designed to buck the trend and be playful at posted limits. Want something else - buy something else, or go aftermarket.

And if you lose "all that crap" you get a Scion, lol. Doesn't weigh that much less.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by dsgerbc

Yes, more PAWAH, more GRIP, lol. The car was designed to buck the trend and be playful at posted limits. Want something else - buy something else, or go aftermarket.

And if you lose "all that crap" you get a Scion, lol. Doesn't weigh that much less.

I'm failing to see how another 50 hp would take away the car's playful nature at posted speeds. That's a logical fallacy if I've ever seen one, and it seems to be repeated ad nauseum on this board.

Also notice how I didn't list HIDs as something I wanted to get rid of I love my HIDs.

And I hate the huge mass volume dealership atmosphere you get with Toyota, Honda, etc. Subaru is much better, at least around here.

[dsgerbc]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

I'm failing to see how another 50 hp would take away the car's playful nature at posted speeds. That's a logical fallacy if I've ever seen one, and it seems to be repeated ad nauseum on this board.

Why do you think Honda made AP2 S2k less tail-happy than AP1? Few people have throttle control required to keep it playful but safe.

[WolfpackS2k]

And the fact that the S2000 has 40 horsepower more has nothing to do with it's tail happiness. You should be looking instead at weight distribution, VTEC switchover, gearing and suspension design...not the 40 hp.

[dsgerbc]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

And the fact that the S2000 has 40 horsepower more has nothing to do with it's tail happiness.

Of course it has. It means that it's torque was available at higher RPM in lower gears, meaning more wheel torque at the same wheel speed. Suspension design contributed to the issue, sure.

If BRZ had a redline of 9k with peak HP around 8.5k, keeping the same 160ft-lbs of torque and gearing, more people would be taking slow corners in first gear and faster corners in 2nd gear, and spinning on exit due to lack of smoothness in throttle application. If gearing was adjusted (say to reach 60mph at the top of the 2nd) - there would be more wheel torque to the wheels all around.

I think AP1 was perfectly fine as is, but quite a few people were spinning them and complained.

[WolfpackS2k]

The BRZ has superior benign chassis dynamics (IMO) when you're not on the throttle, compared to the S2000. That eliminates power from the equation. Most people that spin out and crash their S2000s don't do it because of power over steer. Instead it's because they slam on the brakes when they shouldn't.

I've seen 4-5 S2000s spin off the course at track events I've been to and not a single one of them spun off from applying too much horsepower at the wrong time.

I mean okay I'll admit more power "could' make the BRZ trickier at the limit. But if you learn to modulate the throttle better its a non-issue.

[dsgerbc]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Most people that spin out and crash their S2000s don't do it because of power over steer. Instead it's because they slam on the brakes when they shouldn't.

Did I say anything about power oversteer? More torque also means more weight transfer when people suddenly do a chicken-lift. My general point is that with more torque the car is harder to control.

And how many people learn better throttle modulation?
I'm not saying that everyone will spin, I'm saying that Subaru is unlikely to release a 250HP BRZ car on the same tires/the same chassis tuning.

[WolfpackS2k]

I still think it could be just fine, but you've convinced me that there's a chance it wouldn't.