Can steering feel, tactility, be improved? Without sacrificing adjustability?

[xwd]

Originally Posted by mattles

ever read up on the electric rack used in this car? Its essentially a full manual rack with an electric device strapped to it. No fluids, no BS -- I believe the main mechanics for the electric PS are entirely housed inside of the dashboard, too.

Heh I realized my mistake after I made the post. the main point was usually power assist racks aren't to be used unassisted.

[mike2100]

Originally Posted by dwx

Heh I realized my mistake after I made the post. the main point was usually power assist racks aren't to be used unassisted.

Hydraulic power racks can be converted with a little ingenuity. You get the quick response of the power rack plus the feel/feedback of a manual rack.

I'm wondering if the electric assist motor in this car can simply be turned off for the same effect. No fluid to push around so there's no resistance there. No fluid diverter valve so no sloppiness.

[Trettiosjuan]

Originally Posted by mike2100

Hydraulic power racks can be converted with a little ingenuity. You get the quick response of the power rack plus the feel/feedback of a manual rack.

I'm wondering if the electric assist motor in this car can simply be turned off for the same effect. No fluid to push around so there's no resistance there. No fluid diverter valve so no sloppiness.

It is the presence of a fixed geared electric motor on the column that causes resistance as it will not be powered going straight ahead (no input) yet still filter out subtle information. That said Ive driven plenty hydraulic racks with less feedback than the 86 so perhaps upping the signal from the front wheels will do the trick to overcome the inbuilt hysteresis...
Another possibilty is that there is some adjustability on the column, perhaps the gearing itself is a bit tight on a new car?

Looking to hear feedback from people who modded for other reasons (or not) and can report significantly improved tactile steering feedback! Just want to know it is possible before I take a purchasing decision....

Perhaps I should rephrase the topic title "did your mods improve steering feel?"

[Trettiosjuan]

So I never got a GT86. I settled with a "I surrender" car, a Focus which is 100% rational and still an exceptional good steer. For the class.

Change in work situation got me looking into a Cayman as my "ultimate tactile dream car I could live with". When testing the idea though the total absence of rear seats did bother me, so I ended up back here

If I get a GT86, I have accepted that I will want to modify it, in itself a dangerous alley to walk

Anyhow, I am trying to make up a list that would give me the most tactile car without ruining NVH or handling on (very) bumpy roads:
- Turn in Concept solid steering rack bushes http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...g+rack+bushing
- Motegi Traklite 16" wheels (as small and light as possible): http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12452
- AD08 205/55R16 Ryres: Stiff sidewall, narrow and light for uncorrupted feedback
- Some strut brace of some sort
- Camber bolts for some negative camber in front to keep the AD08 happy.
- Otherwise, keep stock suspension, it should tighten up considerably just with the light wheel set-up
- Purely psychological: some better sounding exhaust and intake

Anybody actually gone a similar route, or has suggestions of other worthwile modifications? This time, I want to have a clear path for my modding and hopefully stick to it...

Thanks!

[koevasi]

I can see you are an all or nothing sort of guy! Have a look at posts by makinen. He seems to be going that route of adding a whole lot of bushing/bracing with lightweight 16 inch wheels and stock suspension.
I personally don't get it but whatever floats your boat.

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by Trettiosjuan

I am talking tactility, the possibility too actually feel what is going on at the front wheels grip and direction wise, in all it's gradations. I just wasn't there for me even if reviewers talk about "bubbling with feel etc" and as a result, we did not "connect".

I am not saying you are wrong but I am wondering if this "problem" can be fixed. I mean if so many other people have praised the steering feel maybe it's just you. I don't mean that as a criticism; just that maybe you will never like the steering feel of this car. I don't know how much more feel you can get at this price point.

This has just occurred to me. How long was your test drive? Maybe (very strong emphasis on that maybe) you have to learn to feel the steering.

[Trettiosjuan]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

I am not saying you are wrong but I am wondering if this "problem" can be fixed. I mean if so many other people have praised the steering feel maybe it's just you. I don't mean that as a criticism; just that maybe you will never like the steering feel of this car. I don't know how much more feel you can get at this price point.

This has just occurred to me. How long was your test drive? Maybe (very strong emphasis on that maybe) you have to learn to feel the steering.

Hi there Captain,

I hear ya, don't want make it sound like it was bad, it wasn't. It was a short half hour drive but I did do it partly on a familiar and very tight/twisty forest road, so I definitely got a taste of the chassis so to speak. By no means is the steering feel bad compared to other modern cars, reviews just had me expecting something in a different league. I like cars like Lotus and Caymans, but they have other issues - those with a rear seat are $$ or compromised otherwise (rear engine ).
And it was a tad unfair comparison with the car I was mainly comparing with, a BMW 1-series with coilovers, bushings, lightweight wheels and AD08s. Stock that car had no real feel and definitely worse than the stock GT86, modified it was better... I was just hoping I didn't have to go the modifying route on the GT86/FRS to get a good measure of steering feel, as is, the humble stock Swift Sport Mk3 I drove back to back was in the same league and a friends E30 was definitely better... which is pretty good points, as 99% of cars for sale are worse

But now that I have open the door to the modifying route (and I don't need a (very) practical car anymore), I can certainly see me owning one after all. In fact, the mods I listed above are not very expensive... but the one year old car itself, relatively speaking still is. So let's see what dealers are willing to do to move their "old" cars... in the mean time, I would love to read any reports (links or answers) on what mods further improved the handling of the GT86/FRS... or how the ones listed above in combination work out.

[EarlQHan]

I think everyone's overthinking this and you're not utilizing what's already there. The cleanest and best way to improve feel is to hack the PS ECU and change the algorithm. Now, how hard or easy this is is anybody's guess, but that's the only difference between the 991 911 and GT3's steering. Same rack, same PS motor, just a different setting.

[Fett4Real]

Whats amusing is I traded in a 2012 Focus (wifes old car) for the 86...The steering is amazingly better...you comparing it to a Beemer I see...with wheels and tires....the tires on the 86 stock are crap. I also have an acura TL with stock wheels and tires and the 86 steering is alot tighter and smoother....braking is alot tighter and smoother...overall a more pleasure to drive. Going back and forth the TL feels squishy and Im sure that was the case for you. With a set of good coilovers wheels and tires and some brakes I think you would have felt more at home. But your comparing a modified car to a stock car. The focus isnt a bad car mind you but the 86 does get better gas milage....wife never saw that part coming still doesnt believe me that it gets better gas milage then her focus.

[Trettiosjuan]

Originally Posted by EarlQHan

I think everyone's overthinking this and you're not utilizing what's already there. The cleanest and best way to improve feel is to hack the PS ECU and change the algorithm. Now, how hard or easy this is is anybody's guess, but that's the only difference between the 991 911 and GT3's steering. Same rack, same PS motor, just a different setting.

Probably guilty of overthinking. Perhaps the steering rack busings alone, and some tampering with the front toe, could do the job already. This is really love/hate, love the possibilities given by the modifying community, hate doing the waiting game, waiting for parts and by the time they arrive already finding new stuff to do and waiting for that - throwing money at it which you'll probably never see again... trying to avoid that so making up different scenarios and then try to stick to them... (who am I kidding...)

[avp1]

Different tires and alignment are two things that can significatly change steering feel. On the other side I do not think I need more feedback from my BRZ. I do not use stock tires though.

[Trettiosjuan]

Hmm. I kind of like the idea of low grip tyres on a competent chassis, makes it possible to feel the chassis move around on a quick run in the real world, which is why I like the GT86. If I wanted to go fast and just have a grippy car, there are many other options I would rather persue...

Maybe I may be happy already with the steering rack bushes and alignment only...

[wparsons]

I've driven a relative's 993 quite a bit, and find the steering feel on that to be similar to my FRS in some situations, but quite different at others.

Similarities: good feedback and good weight/effort under cornering.

Differences: the 911 gives A LOT more feedback over bumps back to the wheel, the FRS rarely ever grabs the wheel and turns it over a bump. This could be suspension geometry, or it could be the electric assist fighting the feedback from the front wheels, can't say for sure. Another difference is weight/effort near center at highway speeds. The 911 is too light for my taste at ~120km/h, it feels more like my wife's camry on the highway.

As for disabling the PS entirely, the rack is a very quick ratio and you'll hate your life. I rolled mine out of a driveway without starting it and it's WAY tougher to steer than any other car I've ever owned rolling out of the same driveway.

[neurokinetik]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

I am not saying you are wrong but I am wondering if this "problem" can be fixed. I mean if so many other people have praised the steering feel maybe it's just you.

Might depend a bit on what else other people are used to driving. Compared to my old Miata with a manual rack (where you could actually feel the contact patch of the tires deflecting as you initiated a turn), the steering in pretty much any other car seems numb by comparison. Compared to other cars with power steering, though, it is more than acceptable.

I've also noticed a huge difference in feel between my Blizzaks in winter and my Hankooks that are on the car now. It's like a totally different car. With tires that actually make grip, the steering actually has some weight to it.