Michigan BRZ/FRS Random Chat and spotted thread.

[Mac1235]

Originally Posted by eikond

Super Charger

I'm not kidding when I say that the car is a completely different animal with an extra 100hp. I rode along on an autox course with a guy who had a turbo kit pushing 270whp. The added power transforms the car. It's no longer a "momentum" car.. you now have enough juice to explore the limits of your tires traction in a straight line at just about any speed.

The way the GT86 chassis communicates and rotates around you is just magical. I've never driven a Cayman, but my understanding is that they are very similar and somewhat unique. The difference between the two cars is the extra $30k in name brand, power, and brakes. The last two items can be made up for with much less cost out of pocket.

Originally Posted by Cameronghanson

IDK as a fellow data enthusiast you may have a similar concern about long term reliability of a super/turbo charged FRS/BRZ. The reliability and maintenance on the porsche is pretty well established however the FRS/BRZ reliability isn't, let alone ones that are being modded to forced induction. at least NA there is warranty as well. Im sure, given the reliability of both subie and toyota it will be fine, but if, for whatever reason something does happen...there is probably only a handful of people who would know how to go about fixing it if it does in fact involve the SC which....as i mentioned, doesnt have an established reliability and history. Like i said it could probably be done with no issues...but if it was my money as much as i love the BRZ, id look at the too options and at the last minute probably veer off and do the porsche.

But thats just me!

Yeah I have always liked Porsche and I am a little partial to them. I would love to add the extra power on the FRS but I would have to wait until the warranty expires and I too am troubled by lack of data on long term reliability. Yeah I am getting more and more convinced on the Porsche for a future car just going to do some more research about costs of maintenance. I don't want to have to dump 30k in a car in repairs. Thanks everyone for the information. This purchase is a long way off, just doing preliminary research.

One thing I don't like about adding to an engine to increase HP by any significant margin is pushing an engine beyond it normal limits, past the ideas of the designers. We shall see how people fair with the SC kit and turbochargers.

[Sevs753]

Originally Posted by Mac1235

One thing I don't like about adding to an engine to increase HP by any significant margin is pushing an engine beyond it normal limits, past the ideas of the designers. We shall see how people fair with the SC kit and turbochargers.

Personally, I think we're anywhere near its normal limits. I get the feeling this engine was designed for FI but scaled back to be N/A. I'm planning on going to FI but not until I pay the car off.

[Mac1235]

Originally Posted by Sevs753

Personally, I think we're anywhere near its normal limits. I get the feeling this engine was designed for FI but scaled back to be N/A. I'm planning on going to FI but not until I pay the car off.

Yeah. I don't know. The Porsche doesn't just have more power it also offers a lot more for interior amenities and I just love the the flat 6.

[dsgerbc]

Originally Posted by Sevs753

Personally, I think we're anywhere near its normal limits. I get the feeling this engine was designed for FI but scaled back to be N/A. I'm planning on going to FI but not until I pay the car off.

And where do you get that feeling from?
That's a waste of money on part of Subaru/Toyota, on a car where every penny was pinched to save and lower the cost. The fact that it took much longer than normal for the tuners to blow-up the engine just means there's progress in alloys used in the engine. But the engineers still designed it with target reliability in mind requested by beancounters. So any increase in power will bring forward the expected time of failure. That's just property of materials.
This notion that manufacturers purposefully overbuild cars is spread by tuners/aftermarket.

[Cameronghanson]

Unfortunately I agree with the above ^

[Sevs753]

Originally Posted by dsgerbc

And where do you get that feeling from?
That's a waste of money on part of Subaru/Toyota, on a car where every penny was pinched to save and lower the cost. The fact that it took much longer than normal for the tuners to blow-up the engine just means there's progress in alloys used in the engine. But the engineers still designed it with target reliability in mind requested by beancounters. So any increase in power will bring forward the expected time of failure. That's just property of materials.
This notion that manufacturers purposefully overbuild cars is spread by tuners/aftermarket.

Just a general feeling from seeing the results of turbo and s/c kits...which is exactly what your last sentence shows. Point taken.

[Mac1235]

Originally Posted by dsgerbc

And where do you get that feeling from?
That's a waste of money on part of Subaru/Toyota, on a car where every penny was pinched to save and lower the cost. The fact that it took much longer than normal for the tuners to blow-up the engine just means there's progress in alloys used in the engine. But the engineers still designed it with target reliability in mind requested by beancounters. So any increase in power will bring forward the expected time of failure. That's just property of materials.
This notion that manufacturers purposefully overbuild cars is spread by tuners/aftermarket.

Originally Posted by Cameronghanson

Unfortunately I agree with the above ^

I tend to agree as well. I have not known many car makers to push their costs on an engine so that others can tune/mod it better. They want their profit and that's that.

Originally Posted by Sevs753

Just a general feeling from seeing the results of turbo and s/c kits...which is exactly what your last sentence shows. Point taken.

This isn't to say people will not put a turbo or SC on it and not have a single problem. I just don't think we have the information and long term data yet. I still feel convinced it will be offered with some sort of engine upgrade from the factory in the coming years model launches.

[eikond]

With the case of the FA20 motor i think you guys are incorrect.

Remember that manufacturers in this day and age use the parts-bin mentallity. Make one part that can be used on multiple vehicles. They must then engineer the quality of that part to be competant in it's highest demanding vehicle.

To prove this point in our case, remember that the 2014 Forrester is being released in Japan this year with FA20 in turbocharged form. 276hp! I'm sure the block is identical.. the wouldn't manufacture the same motor on two different lines with two different sets of parts.

Everything I've seen and read tells me that this motor was built to handle 300hp.

[DKPJester]

You guys...you get me. Every ad I see is now a Cayman ad as I go checking prices once every few weeks trying to decide if in a few years I'll move up into one or spend time getting more power out of the FR-S through supercharging. All points brought up are part of the arguments I've had with myself. Porsche could be more reliable, but if it fails will cost an arm and a leg to fix. Supercharged FR-S may or may not be less reliable but has cheaper parts. Porsche sounds glorious but the driving character of the two is similar and with some work and power I think the FR-S will be very very close indeed. Right now I'm just waiting to see where the Cayman's go and how the FI twins hold up. It's not like this is an immediate concern anyway.

[dsgerbc]

Originally Posted by eikond

To prove this point in our case, remember that the 2014 Forrester is being released in Japan this year with FA20 in turbocharged form. 276hp! I'm sure the block is identical..

Even if the physical block looks identical (which I'm not too positive of, I'm yet to see a picture of the FA20 DIT block), using the same mold, the formulation of the metal might be slightly different. But that's beside the point, you'll put holes in your pistons or blow the rings or bend connecting rods before you deform cylinder walls. And I'm sure those parts are way different on the new Forester XT, and I'm not even talking about tranny, clutch, differential, CV joints in axles, all of which should be upgraded to keep reliability the same.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not against modifying, if you add 100HP it still might last longer than you plan on owning the car. And there is nothing wrong in trading some future reliability for current performance. But it's still a trade-off.

[Mac1235]

Originally Posted by eikond

With the case of the FA20 motor i think you guys are incorrect.

Remember that manufacturers in this day and age use the parts-bin mentallity. Make one part that can be used on multiple vehicles. They must then engineer the quality of that part to be competant in it's highest demanding vehicle.

To prove this point in our case, remember that the 2014 Forrester is being released in Japan this year with FA20 in turbocharged form. 276hp! I'm sure the block is identical.. the wouldn't manufacture the same motor on two different lines with two different sets of parts.

Everything I've seen and read tells me that this motor was built to handle 300hp.

Originally Posted by DKPJester

You guys...you get me. Every ad I see is now a Cayman ad as I go checking prices once every few weeks trying to decide if in a few years I'll move up into one or spend time getting more power out of the FR-S through supercharging. All points brought up are part of the arguments I've had with myself. Porsche could be more reliable, but if it fails will cost an arm and a leg to fix. Supercharged FR-S may or may not be less reliable but has cheaper parts. Porsche sounds glorious but the driving character of the two is similar and with some work and power I think the FR-S will be very very close indeed. Right now I'm just waiting to see where the Cayman's go and how the FI twins hold up. It's not like this is an immediate concern anyway.

Originally Posted by dsgerbc

Even if the physical block looks identical (which I'm not too positive of, I'm yet to see a picture of the FA20 DIT block), using the same mold, the formulation of the metal might be slightly different. But that's beside the point, you'll put holes in your pistons or blow the rings or bend connecting rods before you deform cylinder walls. And I'm sure those parts are way different on the new Forester XT, and I'm not even talking about tranny, clutch, differential, CV joints in axles, all of which should be upgraded to keep reliability the same.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not against modifying, if you add 100HP it still might last longer than you plan on owning the car. And there is nothing wrong in trading some future reliability for current performance. But it's still a trade-off.

Yes I agree you have a lot of other parts in the car that are now taking more stress when increasing HP. The other thing is once you put that stuff on your car it will be harder to sell in the future. It is hard to find the exact same guy out there who likes his car modded the exact same way you did. I know people who won't touch cars that have had previous engine mods because they can't trust it was done right or how beat up the engine is, even if they pull the mods off.

About the Cayman, I just love the body style and I love the feel of driving one and it is a more complete car then the twins. They are a little bit spartan, where if you spend a little more you get legendary Porsche quality. I am a sucker for Porsche and I will talk myself into a Cayman before too long!

Also I am not against modding engines but there are things to consider.

[Mac1235]

Originally Posted by DKPJester

You guys...you get me. Every ad I see is now a Cayman ad as I go checking prices once every few weeks trying to decide if in a few years I'll move up into one or spend time getting more power out of the FR-S through supercharging. All points brought up are part of the arguments I've had with myself. Porsche could be more reliable, but if it fails will cost an arm and a leg to fix. Supercharged FR-S may or may not be less reliable but has cheaper parts. Porsche sounds glorious but the driving character of the two is similar and with some work and power I think the FR-S will be very very close indeed. Right now I'm just waiting to see where the Cayman's go and how the FI twins hold up. It's not like this is an immediate concern anyway.

Maybe we can both get one around the same time and quickly teach eachother how to repair them lol.

[Nourdmrolnmt1]

Had my first interaction with a cop today. He got behind me then pulled up next and asked what my plate meant. Then proceeded to say 'you just want to test that car out, don't you?' To which I said 'I've had fun in private parking lots'

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[Nourdmrolnmt1]

Originally Posted by DKPJester

You guys...you get me. Every ad I see is now a Cayman ad as I go checking prices once every few weeks trying to decide if in a few years I'll move up into one or spend time getting more power out of the FR-S through supercharging. All points brought up are part of the arguments I've had with myself. Porsche could be more reliable, but if it fails will cost an arm and a leg to fix. Supercharged FR-S may or may not be less reliable but has cheaper parts. Porsche sounds glorious but the driving character of the two is similar and with some work and power I think the FR-S will be very very close indeed. Right now I'm just waiting to see where the Cayman's go and how the FI twins hold up. It's not like this is an immediate concern anyway.

That's google doing their magic. If I told you what the online advertising community is truly capable of, you would be in awe.

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