My review of the FRS (RW Steer discussion)

[cgrey]

Originally Posted by AaronCompNetSys

Wow, I didn't know this forum turned into such haters. Pretty much all of your childish callouts are false, such as the trans was in sport.

I'll just leave now.

I guess that's easier than explaining why you didn't know your car uses passive rear wheel steering.

[empower-auto]

I can't take anyone serious that takes an automatic version of this car out for a dealer test drive and then tries to review it as a sports car. It's like a 14 year old writing a guide about intimacy.

Bartle do.

[Kearny Mesa Scion]

Originally Posted by AaronCompNetSys

TL;DR Underpowered with good handling but artificially enhanced.

Started my trip off right talking with the sales guy, turns out he is a collector to, 7 under his belt. I didn't give much hint about what I knew besides when he asked what I owned. I asked what rev limit to keep it under, he said he didn't think I would hurt it if I maxed it a couple times. He mentioned sport buttons and whatever shift times, which I ignored as I turned everything off. I noticed the steering wheel was way to thick, and I have big hands.

Just leaving the lot, it was apparent that the low down torque was closer to the 2.5 than the 2 liter, and the ride quality was very smooth. The auto trans shifted smoothly and authoritatively. The first couple turns through the lot I noticed something extremely familiar, which I would soon find myself in a big argument with the sales guy about...

Heading to Realto, after I let it warm up, I flicked off the AC and told Lisa, Here we go. I pinned the throttle from a crawl, the trans dutifully jumped to first and as the revs climbed, I waited for that VTEC moment. When the first shift hit right at the redline, I looked at Lisa and she said, "Really, thats it?" Nuff said. This thing doesn't have enough power to rotate the rear, and barely enough to shift the weight around.

Back to the steering. The electric steering was quite apparent but same as what I was used to. Weight was fine, I'm just concerned with how the car handles itself with what grip it has. The trait this car shares with its donor as fault of the suspension is the passive rear wheel steer. This trait is noticeable more in some cars (Impulse RS) and not as much in others, but its a trait Subaru builds into its suspension geometry. The magical reactive steering that you hear people talk about with this car, its because it has a high amount of rear wheel steer. In short: as the suspension compresses, the tire toe changes, inducing a bit of extra yaw. This effect helps make the car feel like its pivoting around its center, but has its limits. Its great for AWD because it helps relieve some of the strain put on the fronts under power. In the FRS, the effect is so strong you feel it on the smallest of inputs.

Here is why it is bad: the limits of passive rear steer. The rears only give you so much free yaw, and as you load and unload the rears it gives and taketh away. This makes for very unpredictable for-aft swapping of grip, keeping you about even understeer and oversteer.

Of course you can learn to deal with it, but I personally don't like it. I prefer to manage yaw myself with for-aft balance and the throttle. Its a trait of a RWD car that I think makes it unique. Taking it from the AWD Subie land and forcing it upon a RWD platform doesn't fit in my opinion.

On the flip side, I think this would be a great car for the beginner to RWD. You can have a bit of yaw inducing fun without actually having to do it yourself.

For an experienced driver, this car would need several mods out the door to provide the complete sports car experience you can get from other brands.

Good try Subaru engineers. I'll stop by again with high hopes next revision. After stepping out of the FRS, I stepped into my S and had a properly fun 2 hour drive with less tire grip (all four tires balding). After Lisa listened to the sales guy blab on about how great the FRS handled, she said I should offer him a ride in mine to see what he's missing.

* too thick? thicker than the AP1 i don't think so, especially at 9 and 3 where the S is thicker.

* VTEC... yes, it has variable valve timing but not in the mold of VTEC or VVTL-i. the car is not a 0-60 or 1/4 mile car, that said it does need a more aggressive cam during straightline driving. meaning it could pull a little harder from 4k to 7k. why they chose not too, the S during mid-turn in 2nd gear under 6k can be quite a handful when the vtec engages under full throttle. of course it can be controlled with proper throttle application but the FRS/BRZ will not be handful even with all the aides off.

*"experienced driver": its amazing how every reviewer from the UK to US has had nothing but great things to say about the car. i don't expect everyone to like it but the dynamics can be enjoyed by everyone who has an AP2 or 987C or both. you don't have to be a newbie to rwd to enjoy the car.

"she said I should offer him a ride in mine to see what he's missing": the only thing your AP1 would have over this car is how it pulls from 6-9k which the FRS/BRZ can't match. dynamically the AP1 isn't light years ahead of the FRS/BRZ. its not like we are comparing an AP1 to rwd sports sedan or coupe. the FRS/BRZ is a true sports car. very rarely does a car company put this much thought and effort into one car that won't sell millions during its model life cycle. the engineering team that worked on the 2012 camry spent 10 months working on the car from start to finish, this car was 4+ years. in fact it reminds me of a car that took about as long to develop, which is....... Honda S2000.

[blu_]

There are some good posts in this thread.

[xravexboix]

Originally Posted by Lonewolf

I saw that OP had an s2000 and when he mentioned waiting for VTEC to kick in all I could think about was that Johnny Tran picture from the Fast and the Furious

Found it...

http://auto-fail.com/vtec-can-help-your-resale-value/

[Sasquachulator]

i bet his S was modded to hell and kind of tuned for his tastes too.....

[AaronCompNetSys]

Sadly, the people’s champion-elect, the GT86, is the last car to fall. It’s an enjoyable car, but it has a strange turn-in yaw that feels a bit contrived on the road as well as the circuit, and the engine is underwhelming. Ultimately, it simply doesn’t have the performance or the quality to sneak through.

- Evo Magazine, Car of the Year 2012

Over the last year, I've driven several more examples and talked with many owners in our local community, all report similar results.I found Richard's choice of words quite fitting.

[Draco-REX]

Originally Posted by AaronCompNetSys

- Evo Magazine, Car of the Year 2012

Over the last year, I've driven several more examples and talked with many owners in our local community, all report similar results.I found Richard's choice of words quite fitting.

If that is what you percieve, then that is what you percieve. Personally, I find this car to do exactly what I ask of it without any odd habits. I can balance it on a knife edge, or let the tail step just a bit out of line. And if anything, this car's repeated sucess at AutoX events and other forms of racing have shown that the chassis is a good one without glaring issues. Ultimately, this car works.

I think, bottom line, that this chassis just isn't for your driving style. There's nothing wrong with that; some drivers just do not work with some cars.

[AaronCompNetSys]

I've never been a hater for this car, and I don't think the car is broken. I've been the only one in the local Subaru community that has constantly been attempting to get other members interested in it, I even designed BRZ T-shirt for my wife and I to wear to events (arriving in the S of course ). I'm simply attempting to point out its traits for others to observe and make their own opinion. Other's opinions are not going to change my opinion, and I don't expect anyone else to blindly accept my opinion.

The hate that flows from this thread, that's what I don't get. Just because I have a negative opinion about a car's trait shouldn't send you owners into a fury. Its not to much to ask, to request a slightly more advanced technical discussion. Post what you think of the car, not what you think about what I think about the car.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Draco-REX

Personally, I find this car to do exactly what I ask of it without any odd habits. I can balance it on a knife edge, or let the tail step just a bit out of line. And if anything, this car's repeated sucess at AutoX events and other forms of racing have shown that the chassis is a good one without glaring issues. Ultimately, this car works.

The same can be said for the AP1 S2000. Its ultimate performance capabilities are not really hurt by the toe-change-with-bump issue it suffers from. I love mine, but that "feature" is annoying and unnecessary, and the one thing that the AP2 improved on that I approve of

So does anyone have a toe curve for the FR-S/BRZ yet?

[bdanisi]

Originally Posted by AaronCompNetSys

I've never been a hater for this car, and I don't think the car is broken. I've been the only one in the local Subaru community that has constantly been attempting to get other members interested in it, I even designed BRZ T-shirt for my wife and I to wear to events (arriving in the S of course ). I'm simply attempting to point out its traits for others to observe and make their own opinion. Other's opinions are not going to change my opinion, and I don't expect anyone else to blindly accept my opinion.

The hate that flows from this thread, that's what I don't get. Just because I have a negative opinion about a car's trait shouldn't send you owners into a fury. Its not to much to ask, to request a slightly more advanced technical discussion. Post what you think of the car, not what you think about what I think about the car.

But your like the 50th person this week to do it. :-( we get it lol.

[AaronCompNetSys]

Originally Posted by ZDan

The same can be said for the AP1 S2000. Its ultimate performance capabilities are not really hurt by the toe-change-with-bump issue it suffers from. I love mine, but that "feature" is annoying and unnecessary, and the one thing that the AP2 improved on that I approve of

Agreed, but the other "softer" features of he AP2 kill the experience for me. I need to try CR spec. Sorry for thread jack.

Originally Posted by ZDan

So does anyone have a toe curve for the FR-S/BRZ yet?

Turn In Concepts has one for the 08+ Impreza rear, which I'm not sure how different it is on the 86. My google-fu is failing me and I cannot find their post on iwsti or Nasioc.

[Freetime]

Originally Posted by AaronCompNetSys

Other's opinions are not going to change my opinion,

This tells us all we need to know. The point of a discussion is to have a conversation that might force everyone involved to reevaluate their opinion of whatever is being discussed. You are not willing to consider a change of opinion or thought.
Then why are you here posting this? Just to stand on your soap box and shout to the world what you think and ignoring all feedback? If that is what you are looking for, there are services designed for exactly that. Let me help you - http://www.twitter.com or http://www.blogger.com

[AaronCompNetSys]

Originally Posted by Freetime

This tells us all we need to know. The point of a discussion is to have a conversation that might force everyone involved to reevaluate their opinion of whatever is being discussed. You are not willing to consider a change of opinion or thought.
Then why are you here posting this? Just to stand on your soap box and shout to the world what you think and ignoring all feedback? If that is what you are looking for, there are services designed for exactly that. Let me help you - http://www.twitter.com or http://www.blogger.com

Let me combine two of my sentences to hopefully make it more clear.

Posting your opinion about what my opinion is, is a waste of time and usually trolling. Posting your opinion on the subject at hand is what a discussion is.

I don't listen to other's opinions about my opinions, I listen to their own opinions on the subject as well as technical proofs and explanations. I apologize if I didn't differentiate between the two. I also understand that difference between the two is largely ignored on many forums.

Example: Telling me that what I felt about the experience was wrong and stupid, is childish. Providing your own experiences and trials, and how you felt about them contributes to the thread. Posting technical details and proof that other's experience or understanding was misunderstood is also productive. If I didn't understand what was happening, please explain it to me instead of just informing me that I'm retarded.