FR-S vs RX-8 vs S2000 Review - Everyday Driver

[ZDan]

FWIW, I don't think the FT86 is "underpowered". I'd much rather they built a cab-rearward 2-seat version with 50/50 or better weight distribution than add power.

[CSI:86]

Originally Posted by ZDan

So my guess was off by a bit. 2.7% weight reduction isn't going to dramatically affect performance. Idiotic "mods" for a street car. Wanna go faster? Why not remove the doors?

Still ~1/2 second or more slower than an S2000. Which, btw, puts 10% more of its weight on the drive wheels vs. the FT86 twins. So grippier rear tires are less necessary...

Dyno numbers from people who are selling you things or demonstrating their tuning prowess are possibly optimistic, but even giving these cars +25hp and -80 lb., you are *almost* getting to *stock* S2000 power/weight.


Maybe you should amend your previous post to "Whilst still costing less than a second hand low mileage AP2 s2000 in Australia."

According to 060calculator.com

Subaru brz limited - 2750lbs from factory with full tank of gas
Weight reduction - 2670lbs
Power - 190WHP including mods that added +25WHP plus stage 2 tune that raises rev limiter to 8k rpm so can achieve 60mph in 2nd gear = 227 HP at crank
0 - 60mph = 5.309 secs

Stock AP2 Honda s2000 from factory with full tank of gas - 2840lbs
Power - 239hp
0 - 60mph = 5.35secs

With the same conditions, same variables, same driver, i think it will be AS fast as the s2000.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by CSI:86

According to 060calculator.com
Subaru brz limited - 2750lbs from factory with full tank of gas
Weight reduction - 2670lbs
Power - 190WHP including mods that added +25WHP plus stage 2 tune that raises rev limiter to 8k rpm so can achieve 60mph in 2nd gear = 227 HP at crank
0 - 60mph = 5.309 secs

Don't forget the driver! Adding 200 lb. I get 5.64 sec.

Stock AP2 Honda s2000 from factory with full tank of gas - 2840lbs
Power - 239hp
0 - 60mph = 5.35secs

Also adding 200 lb., I get 5.63.

With the same conditions, same variables, same driver, i think it will be AS fast as the s2000.

The S2000 does have a marked weight distribution advantage which helps off-the-line acceleration, which the calculator doesn't account for, but OK, close enough!

But of course you can remove the spare and tools from the s2000 as well (~ -40 lb), and tune it for 10 more hp (realistically). Now it's at 5.41.

But anyway, 5.5 seconds or 6.5 seconds 0-60 doesn't mean much to me (my RX-7 should be ~3.0). For realzies, I LOVE this car and IMO it gives 90% of the "sports car" experience that the S2000 does while providing a back seat and fixed roof. But not quite ready to sell the AP1 and get one yet...

[CSI:86]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Don't forget the driver! Adding 200 lb. I get 5.64 sec.

Also adding 200 lb., I get 5.63.

The S2000 does have a marked weight distribution advantage which helps off-the-line acceleration, which the calculator doesn't account for, but OK, close enough!

But of course you can remove the spare and tools from the s2000 as well (~ -40 lb), and tune it for 10 more hp (realistically). Now it's at 5.41.

But anyway, 5.5 seconds or 6.5 seconds 0-60 doesn't mean much to me (my RX-7 should be ~3.0). For realzies, I LOVE this car and IMO it gives 90% of the "sports car" experience that the S2000 does while providing a back seat and fixed roof. But not quite ready to sell the AP1 and get one yet...

2670 + 200lbs driver = 2870

Its 5.605 secs for the BRZ

2840 + 200lbs driver = 3040

Its 5.63 for the s2000

Plus your not taking into account that the BRZ is still on crappy Michelin primacy HP tyres. Once you put Bridgestone Potenzas like on the stock s2000s, it will help with the off-the-line accleration even more and should negate its disadvantage as a slightly front biased car.

We are talking about a lightly modded BRZ (2.5k spending money) vs a stock s2000.

If i lived in the states, i would buy the 2009 s2000 in a heartbeat! But since in Australia, supply is so limited, the prices are jacked up. and the best bang for buck is getting a BRZ and modding to the same level as a s2000 for less money than buying a used s2000, plus its 4 years newer.

[Masato-san]

I was cross shopping the s2000 and 86. I wanted an s2000 since the day it released and always thought I would buy it but around Toronto you can not find a decent used s2000 for under 20k. 20k for a 10 year old car! Are you joking me! I don't remember what a s2000 costed new but I think it was around 50k. If it was just 32k like the US I definitely would buy it over the FRS.

You can't beat 25k for a brand spanking new 86. At that price point it is simply a gift from the gods.

[CSI:86]

Originally Posted by Masato-san

I was cross shopping the s2000 and 86. I wanted an s2000 since the day it released and always thought I would buy it but around Toronto you can not find a decent used s2000 for under 20k. 20k for a 10 year old car! Are you joking me! I don't remember what a s2000 costed new but I think it was around 50k. If it was just 32k like the US I definitely would buy it over the FRS.

You can't beat 25k for a brand spanking new 86. At that price point it is simply a gift from the gods.

Hear Hear

[Deslock]

I admire these cars. All three have excellent handling, road feel, chassis, balance, shifter, throttle response, etc and are great deals for what you get.

DYNAMICS

Having owned an RX8 and BRZ and driven many S2000s, my ranking just for dynamics is:

1. S2000 - best chassis (as a convertible too!), shifter, steering, engine output, engine response, suspension, wheelbase... an all-around incredible drive, and I don't know why anyone would expect the others to beat it
2. BRZ - almost MX5 nimble, lacks high-end punch, a bit unhappy at high RPM, shifter good but not as effortless, wheelbase a tad long, but otherwise almost as good as the S2000 in every way
3. RX8 - smoothest and most willing-to-rev engine, wheelbase too long, shifter almost as awesome as the S2000's, very balanced and neutral, a bit heavy, most comfortable (my 2004 was a lot softer than the R3)

But then we get to the other factors of car ownership...

EFFICIENCY

My BRZ consumes a whopping 40% less fuel than my RX8 did, and is also more efficient than the S2000. Though the RX8's oil consumption was an overblown complaint, it's nice to not have to dump a quart into the BRZ every 2000 miles.

PRACTICALITY

As a two seater, the S2000 offers limited utility, and owning a soft top can mean other drawbacks (noise, security, safety). The RX8 has the most passenger room, but its trunk is small and the rear seats don't fold down.

The FT86 has the best cargo room, and its rear seats are useful for kids or a 3rd adult in a pinch. My kids loved riding in the RX8, and they love riding in the BRZ.

RELIABILITY

The S2000 is proven. The RX8's 13B-MSP is hit and miss. The FT86 is unproven, but expected to be fine.

PRICE

I paid $24k for my base 6MT RX8 in 2004 (~$2k under MSRP). Adjusted for inflation, that was $29k in 2012, which is undercut by what I paid for my BRZ limited (never mind the cheaper BRZ Premium or FRS).

The 2009 S2000 started at $35k, which was $37k in 2012 dollars.

SUMMARY

I agree with much of what they said, and my driving dynamics ranking even matches Todd Deeken's (the long-haired reviewer).

However, though I haven't driven an S2000 or RX8 since getting my BRZ, I have driven a 400 hp STI recently. It didn't make me feel like the BRZ needed more power.

And when we factor in efficiency, practicality, and price, to me the FT86 is the clear winner as a daily driver.

This was a pretty good video review, though I would've liked to have seen the MX5 included (which I enjoy driving just as much as the S2000).

[cosworth]

What a great review! I've been looking for a S2000 vs. BRZ/FRS review for a while and the review nails it.

Having just picked up a BRZ as a daily and having an AP2 for sunny days, I can honestly say that they are both amazing cars for the money.

For me AP2 is definitely a faster car and it just feels more raw. I'm sure its high revving engine, topdown nature and tight cabin has something to do with it. But, it's just faster for me. Also, I just love the transmission in the AP2... snick, snick... it just feels so precise! Even though I don't daily drive the S, I definitely feel cramped on trips longer than 2 hours, it's loud as f*ck on long trips and I have to yell to talk to the passenger. 70mph has the engine revving @ ~3,800rpm... (I think... it's been a while.) I don't check mpg on this car, 'cuz it's pretty pathetic for a 4 banger.

BRZ definitely has it all at the right price point, IMO. It's a great handling car. Its seating positing is better than the S (for me). Very spartan but comfortable cabin. Enough room to actually pack for a weekend trip. Like every review, the only thing it lacks is extra 20-40 hp. But, more so, the engine just doesn't feel right at "high" rpm. But, comparing a boxer H4 to a Honda VTEC I4 is not fair. Regardless, the engine leaves something to be desired.

For me, having a BRZ as a daily and an S2000 as a weekend combo is everything that I could ask for. (ok, I'd love to add an E30 M3 to the stable... but, that f-ing car's price is out of hand!)

I wish Subaru could either add extra 20-40 hp in a few years, or create a CR-equivalent version of BRZ. Lower weight ~2,600, optional stereo/AC/spare tire, track oriented suspension, light wheels and better tires. This would almost be a perfect sports car!

In short: If you haven't driven an S2000, you should. If you haven't lived with a BRZ, you should. They are both so good!

Sean

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by CSI:86

2670 + 200lbs driver = 2870
Its 5.605 secs for the BRZ

I'm inputting 225 crank horsepower, and 2870 lb., and getting 5.64 seconds. To get 5.605 you must be giving it a couple more hp. +25hp is more than enough to account for the absolute bestest intake/exhaust/tune!

Plus your not taking into account that the BRZ is still on crappy Michelin primacy HP tyres. Once you put Bridgestone Potenzas like on the stock s2000s, it will help with the off-the-line accleration even more and should negate its disadvantage as a slightly front biased car.

It's at more of a disadvantage on stock tires, of course. But still has a disadvantage in terms of relative weight on the drive wheels on the same tires vs. S2000, this disadvantage isn't negated by much. Actually, with all of the the weight reduction coming from the rear of the car, now it's going to be at an even bigger disadvantage here!

If i lived in the states, i would buy the 2009 s2000 in a heartbeat! But since in Australia, supply is so limited, the prices are jacked up. and the best bang for buck is getting a BRZ and modding to the same level as a s2000 for less money than buying a used s2000, plus its 4 years newer.

If age didn't bother you, you could get an older AP1, which has identical performance to the AP2 (slightly less power, slightly less weight, wider powerband with 9000rpm redline)

[CSI:86]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I'm inputting 225 crank horsepower, and 2870 lb., and getting 5.64 seconds. To get 5.605 you must be giving it a couple more hp. +25hp is more than enough to account for the absolute bestest intake/exhaust/tune!

It's at more of a disadvantage on stock tires, of course. But still has a disadvantage in terms of relative weight on the drive wheels on the same tires vs. S2000, this disadvantage isn't negated by much. Actually, with all of the the weight reduction coming from the rear of the car, now it's going to be at an even bigger disadvantage here!



If age didn't bother you, you could get an older AP1, which has identical performance to the AP2 (slightly less power, slightly less weight, wider powerband with 9000rpm redline)

Watchman got 185WHP from 160WHP, from just a short ram Injen intake + Perrin catback + Stage 1 ecutek tune + perrin pulley . Im putting Perrin COLD AIR intake + Perrin HEADERBACK + Stage 2 Ecutek tune + Perrin pulley. I think i should i get more than 25WHP, if not 30WHP. And your calculating horsepower gain from the crank, 200HP + 25WHP does not equal 225 crank horsepower on the calculator. 25WHP is about 29-30Hp at crank, signifying a 18 - 20% rwd drivetrain loss.

disregarding the tires, both tires will be the same on the s2000 and brz. BRZ will still edge out the s2000.

And yes age is important to me. I dont want a 12 year old thrashed f20 engine.

[Nick Graves]

Originally Posted by iLuveKetchup

The s2k would be a big car if it were 2+2. I really wish Honda came out with a 2 seater fixed roof s2k. It would have been lighter than the convertible with the same 240hp. A 2500lb s2k from Honda would have kicked ass.

Apparently, Honda IS working on it! Talk about "me-tooing" the Hachiroku.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by CSI:86

Watchman got 185WHP from 160WHP, from just a short ram Injen intake + Perrin catback + Stage 1 ecutek tune + perrin pulley.

Two different days, different conditions, other differences in car? Alignment will also have an effect. 160 seems quite low rwhp for a stock FR-S. 185rwhp for those mods is believable. That's ~218hp at the flywheel.

Im putting Perrin COLD AIR intake + Perrin HEADERBACK + Stage 2 Ecutek tune + Perrin pulley. I think i should i get more than 25WHP, if not 30WHP.

I think that's quite optimistic! Dyno before and after, of course.

And your calculating horsepower gain from the crank, 200HP + 25WHP does not equal 225 crank horsepower on the calculator. 25WHP is about 29-30Hp at crank, signifying a 18 - 20% rwd drivetrain loss.

Claiming 20% drivetrain loss is a good way to pad flywheel hp estimates. Real world, it's going to be more like 12-15%. Unless you have a ton of rear toe-in and/or low tire pressures.

disregarding the tires, both tires will be the same on the s2000 and brz. BRZ will still edge out the s2000.

I don't think so.

And yes age is important to me. I dont want a 12 year old thrashed f20 engine.

So don't get one that's been thrashed. Not that they're not totally up to repeated thrashing. Mine has 160k+ miles on it and 25 or so track days on it. Still spinning to 9000rpm reliably

[TouchMyHonda]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

What makes you say that? I have nearly 120k on my F22C1, and I can assure you that a LOT of that was hard, hard miles. Countless track days and canyon runs, and other... spirited driving.

Zero loss in compression, still burns no oil, pulls just as hard as new.

There's a lot of examples running 500hp+ with YEARS of drivign on them. One particular local example to me has nearly 70k miles at 500+... and that car's been beaten on on the street as well as at the track, by the owner, me, and some pro drivers.

I was referring simply to NA response to mods. In that terms it's not the greatest when compared to other Honda engines like a k20a

[CSI:86]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Two different days, different conditions, other differences in car? Alignment will also have an effect. 160 seems quite low rwhp for a stock FR-S. 185rwhp for those mods is believable. That's ~218hp at the flywheel.

I think that's quite optimistic! Dyno before and after, of course.

Claiming 20% drivetrain loss is a good way to pad flywheel hp estimates. Real world, it's going to be more like 12-15%. Unless you have a ton of rear toe-in and/or low tire pressures.

I don't think so.



So don't get one that's been thrashed. Not that they're not totally up to repeated thrashing. Mine has 160k+ miles on it and 25 or so track days on it. Still spinning to 9000rpm reliably

CBR600RR did an AFE takeda short ram intake, Perrin headerback exhaust, John Visconti's Tune, and netted 36WHP, when he sent his car to John for a dyno to perfect the tune. So your saying, im being optimistic with only 30WHP for putting better mods? Please look at other people's dyno threads before assuming.

As you can tell, im using a calculator to figure out the 0 -60mph. All of this technical information is done on a calculator. On the calculator, it clearly states a lightly modded BRZ is as fast as a stock AP2 s2000 in relation to weight and horsepower, when ALL factors are the same. Same tires, same driver, same weather conditions.

Watchman's base stock hp is pretty low. Mine can be higher or even lower. Say my base hp is 160whp like watchman. Add 30WHP = 190WHP = 227HP. still on the calculator, little faster than the s2000.