FR-S vs RX-8 vs S2000 Review - Everyday Driver

[4U-GSE]

I am just really happy that the FR-S is even comparable with the S2000. The S2000, in my mind, was the panicle of Honda engineering. The S2000 cost about $32K back in 1999 when it first came out and that puts it in a different price range than our humble FR-S at about $25K in today's money. However, I would gladly have given an extra 7-8K of my money to Toyota for an engine that matches the amazing chassis the FR-S has.

[jdcorbitt3]

I have had all three of these cars and must say they are quite similar in handling. The big complaint among RX-8 owners was the lack of power. Pettit Racing takes care of that, giving it the 300 rwhp it should have. The S2000 steering has to be one of the best I have experienced, on par with higher end cars like the F360 and the Cayman S. All that said, the FR-S is a fantastic platform to start out on. Showroom stock, it is a great handling car with almost twice the fuel economy of the RX-8 in town. I bought this car with the intent on turbo charging it, instead of spending that money on an old car. I am looking forward to tracking this car to see how it really compares.

John

[Celica00]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i feel like the flip side of the coin is that those cars its compared with are like a decade older and have significant miles on them. so maybe a wash on that aspect at best.

false. they mention that that particular rx8 was pretty new. I don't recall how old the Honda was, however. so considering the frs had a years' worth a miles on it by now would negate whatever miles the rx8 had. but your point is valid for the Honda (but wasn't it like 40K new?) so it better be a better car.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by was385

If I had had the ability to get two cars, it would have been the S2000 and something more practical. With space for only one, there's just no way to get the S2000 and not annoy your friends every time you need something the slightest bit practical. Now I only annoy them every once in a while when it's something big.

FRS
Econoline Conversion Van
18ft Dual axle trailer
Racecar

The van gets borrowed, the trailer gets borrowed, even the race car gets borrowed but the FRS... does not get borrowed.

[SubieNubie]

To me it was between a S2000 and FRS/BRZ, and like others I chose the BRZ because I its a better daily that the S2000. In addition to that the S2000 doesn't fit my 6'2", 300 lbs frame very well. If I was going buy it (S2000) as a second car, I think I could have managed cramming myself in there most weekends but not every day. This is coming from a Honda fan boy, and I think a large portion of FRS/BRZ owners have come from the house of Honda because they have the same issues with the S2000. If I hit the lotto, I'd scoop up a S2000 in a heart beat though.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by #87

Maybe a decent review but I think the s2k and FRS are too different to actually compare unless someone is looking at them for a track only car. BRZ is my DD and only car, no way I would have a 2 seater convertible for that role... Then if want to track you need a cage?

I've done it for years. You can fit a shocking amount of stuff in a s2k trunk...

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Celica00

i really respect this review. very good information. but they are comparing 2 cars that have gone through years of refinement, to a car that is brand freakin new (quite literally as it was one of the first 86 made) not really fair until all of them have been through the motions and refined appropriately.

Imagine if they compared a CR....

I may have a slight bias.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by SubieNubie

To me it was between a S2000 and FRS/BRZ, and like others I chose the BRZ because I its a better daily that the S2000. In addition to that the S2000 doesn't fit my 6'2", 300 lbs frame very well. If I was going buy it (S2000) as a second car, I think I could have managed cramming myself in there most weekends but not every day. This is coming from a Honda fan boy, and I think a large portion of FRS/BRZ owners have come from the house of Honda because they have the same issues with the S2000. If I hit the lotto, I'd scoop up a S2000 in a heart beat though.

I think we may need to arrange for a ride in a s2k.... don't say I didn't warn you.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by TouchMyHonda

Give it time. The f20C is honestly not that great of an engine in terms of great Honda engines. For the longest time people were able to make much more whp off of them and are just starting to in the last few recent years.

What makes you say that? I have nearly 120k on my F22C1, and I can assure you that a LOT of that was hard, hard miles. Countless track days and canyon runs, and other... spirited driving.

Zero loss in compression, still burns no oil, pulls just as hard as new.

There's a lot of examples running 500hp+ with YEARS of drivign on them. One particular local example to me has nearly 70k miles at 500+... and that car's been beaten on on the street as well as at the track, by the owner, me, and some pro drivers.

[CSG Mike]

And, because I'm a s2k owner... I've posted this before and I'll post it again.

Now if only I could get a BRZ with a F2xC in it....

[CSI:86]

If you do weight reduction, remove unuseable rear seats, remove spare tyre, strip the trunk (0 bucks), you will be almost, if not as fast as a rx-8.

If you add grippy tires at rear (400 bucks), you will be as fast, if not faster than a rx-8.

Plus you add CAI, lightweight pulley, headerback exhaust, stage 2 tune (2500 bucks), you will be as fast, if not faster than a s2000.

Whilst still costing less than a second hand low mileage AP2 s2000.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by CSI:86

If you do weight reduction, remove unuseable rear seats, remove spare tyre, strip the trunk (0 bucks), you will be almost, if not as fast as a rx-8.

About as quick as an RX-8 stock. 0-60 ~6.5, 1/4 ~14.5 @ ~95mph. All those radical weight reduction measures will save you maybe 60 lb., ~2%. Hardly worth it.

If you add grippy tires at rear (400 bucks), you will be as fast, if not faster than a rx-8.

In terms of acceleration, the car is *hardly* suffering from lack of rear grip at nearly 15 lb/hp! I would consider *four* grippier tires a necessary addition for handling, which is doable for not much more than $400.

Plus you add CAI, lightweight pulley, headerback exhaust, stage 2 tune (2500 bucks), you will be as fast, if not faster than a s2000.

+5hp and -60lb. is not quite going to give this car equivalent power/weight to the S2000 (~14.1 lb/hp vs. 12.7 lb/hp with driver and fuel). "Stage 2 tune" and minor intake/exhaust mods aren't going to get you that much more power. Optimistically, +10hp still only has you at 13.8 lb/hp.

Whilst still costing less than a second hand low mileage AP2 s2000.

If you're paying more than $25k for a used AP2, you're paying too much IMO.
You can get a mint 60k mile AP1 (same performance as a low-mileage AP2) for $12k less, and have better than 50/50 weight distribution vs. 55/45 with the 86. A used S2000 is generally going to be a lot cheaper than a brande newe FT86, of course.

[CSI:86]

Originally Posted by ZDan

About as quick as an RX-8 stock. 0-60 ~6.5, 1/4 ~14.5 @ ~95mph. All those radical weight reduction measures will save you maybe 60 lb., ~2%. Hardly worth it.

In terms of acceleration, the car is *hardly* suffering from lack of rear grip at nearly 15 lb/hp! I would consider *four* grippier tires a necessary addition for handling, which is doable for not much more than $400.

+5hp and -60lb. is not quite going to give this car equivalent power/weight to the S2000 (~14.1 lb/hp vs. 12.7 lb/hp with driver and fuel). "Stage 2 tune" and minor intake/exhaust mods aren't going to get you that much more power. Optimistically, +10hp still only has you at 13.8 lb/hp.

If you're paying more than $25k for a used AP2, you're paying too much IMO.
You can get a mint 60k mile AP1 (same performance as a low-mileage AP2) for $12k less, and have better than 50/50 weight distribution vs. 55/45 with the 86. A used S2000 is generally going to be a lot cheaper than a brande newe FT86, of course.

Your post is flawed in so many ways...

Taking out the whole rear seats assembly, trunk tools, OEM trunk panels, OEM trunk mat, spare tire nets 80lbs. Search the official weight reduction thread.

Search the WHOLE forum, and see that members have changed their rears for semi slicks/high grip tires and have dropped 0.2 - 0.5 secs off their 0-60.

Perrin Headerback exhaust + Perrin CAI + Stage 2 Ecutek reflash tune + Perrin crank pulley = 25WHP, not 10HP. Ask Jeremy from FT86speedfactory, ask Watchman (who gained 25 WHP from 160WHP with only stage 1 tune, Perrin catback, pulley and intake).

Lastly, im from Australia so i dont know what the price of AP2 s2000's are in the states. Here in aus, 2007 - 2009 AP2 s2000s are worth 40 - 45k depending on mileage. You can buy a 2000-01 AP1 s2000 for 20 - 25k that mostly possibly has been thrashed its ass off. I purchased my GTS highest spec Toyota 86 which has the same specs as the BRZ limited for 37.4k.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by CSI:86

Your post is flawed in so many ways...
Taking out the whole rear seats assembly, trunk tools, OEM trunk panels, OEM trunk mat, spare tire nets 80lbs. Search the official weight reduction thread.

So my guess was off by a bit. 2.7% weight reduction isn't going to dramatically affect performance. Idiotic "mods" for a street car. Wanna go faster? Why not remove the doors?
Plenty of S2kers remove the spare and tools as well, "because race car", and likewise they would never in a million years be able to detect the actual performance benefit of this with their calibrated backsides.

Search the WHOLE forum, and see that members have changed their rears for semi slicks/high grip tires and have dropped 0.2 - 0.5 secs off their 0-60.

Still ~1/2 second or more slower than an S2000. Which, btw, puts 10% more of its weight on the drive wheels vs. the FT86 twins. So grippier rear tires are less necessary...

Perrin Headerback exhaust + Perrin CAI + Stage 2 Ecutek reflash tune + Perrin crank pulley = 25WHP, not 10HP. Ask Jeremy from FT86speedfactory, ask Watchman (who gained 25 WHP from 160WHP with only stage 1 tune, Perrin catback, pulley and intake).

Dyno numbers from people who are selling you things or demonstrating their tuning prowess are possibly optimistic, but even giving these cars +25hp and -80 lb., you are *almost* getting to *stock* S2000 power/weight.

Lastly, im from Australia so i dont know what the price of AP2 s2000's are in the states. Here in aus, 2007 - 2009 AP2 s2000s are worth 40 - 45k depending on mileage. I purchased my GTS highest spec Toyota 86 which has the same specs as the BRZ limited for 37.4k.

Maybe you should amend your previous post to "Whilst still costing less than a second hand low mileage AP2 s2000 in Australia."