Death at HPDE

[Hanakuso]

Originally Posted by ayau

To be clear, should a 4 point harness be used or not be used without other safety equipment?

From my understanding is stay stock + helmet. If you do choose to go with everything, don't leave out cage, 5-6 point, racing seat, Hans, etc

I've heard 4 point is ok if used properly but I'd rather not risk it and just go 5-6 if I went that route

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by ayau

To be clear, should a 4 point harness be used or not be used without other safety equipment?

A 4 point should never be in a track car period IMO. Safest is 100% oem or 100% safety equipment, never a mix of oem and real safety gear. 4 ponts without anti sub belts are less safe than oem belts.

[Accurate Race Shop]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

A 4 point should never be in a track car period IMO. Safest is 100% oem or 100% safety equipment, never a mix of oem and real safety gear. 4 ponts without anti sub belts are less safe than oem belts.

I agree if you are gonna spend all that money on the cage or belt bar you might as well strap a quality 5-6 point harness on it. The 4 point is not enough and in some ways is worse than stock equipment in my opinion.

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2

[Evasive Motorsports]

This is so sad Wish the family and the driver the best because recovering from something like this is going to be very hard everyone.

[Turn in Concepts]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

A 4 point should never be in a track car period IMO. Safest is 100% oem or 100% safety equipment, never a mix of oem and real safety gear. 4 ponts without anti sub belts are less safe than oem belts.

I completely agree with one exception. The Schrothe Ralleye 4 point with the anti submarining feature that hooks into the stock seat belt receptacles. It keeps the factory safety systems in use while providing for better restraint. These are only made for a few cars though.

Otherwise stock seat belts it is! I cannot even begin to recall the number of people I have advised against using harness bars.

Tony

[sw20kosh]

Am I safe with my Rallye 3?

There are two main reasons why the Schroth Belts are the only safe aftermarket harnesses: ASM technology and the ability to install the belts to stock harness mounting locations.
ASM stands for Anti-SubMarining. It's an extra flap of material sewn into the inboard shoulder belt that prevents you from sliding underneath the lap belt. In a 4 point harness made by some other company, the two shoulder straps restrain your upper body equally. They keep your chest from moving forward. However, this also pulls up on the lap belt and allows your accelerating pelvis to slide under the lap belt and cause serious damage to your stomach and intestines. With ASM, one of the shoulder belts will elongate at a different rate which will force your pelvis down into the seat cushion. Upon rebound, you will be placed back in an upright position with the belt correctly placed over your body.

The advantages of being able to mount an aftermarket 4 point harness to stock mounting locations are many.
First and foremost is the knowledge that these points have been load tested. This means that the manufacturer of your vehicle engineered the points to be able to withstand some truly amazing forces for a specified length of time. In plain English this means that the bolts won't pull out of the sheet metal.

It also means (in the case of a Schroth Harness) that you can retain the use of your stock 3-point harness, allowing you the use of the backseat of your car. If you have the need to transport passengers (or cargo) in your backseat, it is possible to disconnect the tailstrap (a feature only Schroth has) and use your normal 3 point harness.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

Am I safe with my Rallye 3?

If I was your instructor and had to ride in your car I would use the OEM 3pt.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

Am I safe with my Rallye 3?

you should be fine as long as you don't get into a serious, high-impact accident.

[CSG Mike]

I will not instruct in cars that are not using either a COMPLETE safety system, or a COMPLETE OEM system. No hybrids, although I"m guilty of using a hybrid system in the S2k, albeit with proper positioning of the belts, and with airbags.

[markitect]

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

Am I safe with my Rallye 3?

If it is the Rallye 3 ASM, then it is as safe(as safe as the Rallye 4 ASM), they come both ways, so check!!!!!


I'm sure people will debate the ASM technology, look at the Schroth's website, and look at crash test videos on youtube and decide for yourself.

[MTCRX]

Originally Posted by markitect

If it is the Rallye 3 ASM, then it is as safe(as safe as the Rallye 4 ASM), they come both ways, so check!!!!!


I'm sure people will debate the ASM technology, look at the Schroth's website, and look at crash test videos on youtube and decide for yourself.

I have also been advised that using a racing harness without roll cage protection is a bad idea because in the event of a rollover you are trapped in an upright position, and if the roof collapses, bad news. I don't know if this a real concern, but it makes sense. Full protective system, belts, seat, roll cage, Hans for frequent track day use would probably be a good idea.

[SkullWorks]

Well after all of this I believe I will not be visiting the track again until I go all out on my safety setup, I have a full cage and 5pt harnesses CF fixedback seat QR steering wheel hub ETC but, this makes my stomach knot up at the reality of the risks I take so lightly (and still so much more serious than most)

I will be investing in a HANS Device and fire suit before my next outing... aswell as a real racing helmet, to date i have "gotten away" with a MA rated helmet or an open face simpson helmet.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

Am I safe with my Rallye 3?

As posted by Markitect, in theory, you are if it's an ASM. Does that mean I would personally trust it? No... it also would not be allowed at any event I run tech at.

Originally Posted by markitect

If it is the Rallye 3 ASM, then it is as safe(as safe as the Rallye 4 ASM), they come both ways, so check!!!!!


I'm sure people will debate the ASM technology, look at the Schroth's website, and look at crash test videos on youtube and decide for yourself.

Yeah, I still don't buy it. You should never use a harness that holds you to the seat with stock seats and no rollover protection so adding the 5th/6th belt should be done anyways if you are taking safety seriously. These belts are, IMO, autocross use belts only.

Originally Posted by MTCRX

I have also been advised that using a racing harness without roll cage protection is a bad idea because in the event of a rollover you are trapped in an upright position, and if the roof collapses, bad news. I don't know if this a real concern, but it makes sense. Full protective system, belts, seat, roll cage, Hans for frequent track day use would probably be a good idea.

This is correct. For one, the stock seats (and any hinged seat for that matter) can break in a collision so you effectively become a flying object if that ever happens, and 2nd, I want a roll bar holding the weight of the car in a rollover, not my head

Like Mike said, it's all or nothing. That's the rules I enforce at events I do and it's the rules I suggest to everyone who asks me about it.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by SkullWorks

Well after all of this I believe I will not be visiting the track again until I go all out on my safety setup, I have a full cage and 5pt harnesses CF fixedback seat QR steering wheel hub ETC but, this makes my stomach knot up at the reality of the risks I take so lightly (and still so much more serious than most)

I will be investing in a HANS Device and fire suit before my next outing... aswell as a real racing helmet, to date i have "gotten away" with a MA rated helmet or an open face simpson helmet.

Check out the NecksGen also. Kind of the new version of the DefNDer post HANS Lawsuit. IMO it's a better solution (and that's coming from a HANS owner).

IMO, stay stock or go all out. If you are doing a custom cage mount the seat to the CAGE and not the car. And of course with any cage, design is key. If you are going custom, you either have to know what you are doing or find someone who does. I've seen so many bad cage designs (and I'm not even an expert to spot the less obvious ones) that it's actually pretty sad.