FA20 bolt-on horsepower gain potential

[2forme]

Originally Posted by Jeff86

Word. I've gone back on forth on this car kinda wishing I could keep it NA for the throttle response and try to improve that. It's a wonderful car with what they did with compression and direct injection to push what they could from the motor. It's obviously a great combination for twisty roads and powering out of turns.

I like the results you got with e85. If I could get 200whp on 93 I'd probably keep her NA. It's just too inconvenient for me to fill all the time with e85 (without a flex fuel solution). Since you are 200whp on that fuel, how do you like it? Is 200 enough go or do you find yourself desiring more?

Yea, I want to try full bolt ons and see what it makes. Been a bit gun shy on a header because people aren't really seeing much when it's combined with I/E from what I've seen.

I think this motor needs cams, honestly. Right now it flows nice from 2500 to 6500, then starts gasping. If we could get cams that bump that band up to 3500-7500, you would see very nice gains without sacrificing too much of that low end grunt.

[Jeff86]

Originally Posted by 2forme

Yea, I want to try full bolt ons and see what it makes. Been a bit gun shy on a header because people aren't really seeing much when it's combined with I/E from what I've seen.

I think this motor needs cams, honestly. Right now it flows nice from 2500 to 6500, then starts gasping. If we could get cams that bump that band up to 3500-7500, you would see very nice gains without sacrificing too much of that low end grunt.

I agree, and coming from a car that's freakishly loud I'd like to keep this one on the civilized side. All I've really done is the tune which I knew would make the largest difference. Since these headers seem to fix the "torque dip", I've been thinking of staying stock on the exhaust and doing header/overpipe only... and hoping stock exhaust keeps it from getting obnoxious.

[2forme]

Originally Posted by Jeff86

I agree, and coming from a car that's freakishly loud I'd like to keep this one on the civilized side. All I've really done is the tune which I knew would make the largest difference. Since these headers seem to fix the "torque dip", I've been thinking of staying stock on the exhaust and doing header/overpipe only... and hoping stock exhaust keeps it from getting obnoxious.

An AVO turbo kit would help with the obnoxiousness too LOL. I'm leaning towards that. The turbo seems to have great response for the motor. Don't need to run dangerous amounts of pressure to get power, either.

[zc06_kisstherain]

I believe k20 is much better mod friendly and gives more power.
I had 05 RSX-S with BuddyClub Race Header (cat-deleted), 2.5 inch Comptech Exhuast, Injen Cold Air Intake, K-Pro street tuned.
I didn't dynoed but i put a bus lengthed on my friend's AP2 with CAI, Exhaust.

[Jeff86]

Originally Posted by 2forme

An AVO turbo kit would help with the obnoxiousness too LOL. I'm leaning towards that. The turbo seems to have great response for the motor. Don't need to run dangerous amounts of pressure to get power, either.

I've been thinking the same thing. Of all the FI solutions, that would be the one and the quieting effect of the turbo is attractive while adding the power. It's definitely a slick setup and I've been watching @Sportsguy83 with a bit of envy. I'm enjoying the reliability of NA too, though. It's nice to take a 5+ hour trip feeling confident nothing... unexpected is very likely.

But yeah... still terribly torn which is why my money is still in my wallet haha.

[2forme]

Originally Posted by Jeff86

I've been thinking the same thing. Of all the FI solutions, that would be the one and the quieting effect of the turbo is attractive while adding the power. It's definitely a slick setup and I've been watching @Sportsguy83 with a bit of envy. I'm enjoying the reliability of NA too, though. It's nice to take a 5+ hour trip feeling confident nothing... unexpected is very likely.

But yeah... still terribly torn which is why my money is still in my wallet haha.

Yea, a lot of people would jump on and hark the Vortech kit, but IMO, it's a tad overpriced and underwhelming to drive. Can also be a pain to install/take off. But, at least they are finally starting to hit the originally advertised numbers with the new kit. I'm a little concerned that it takes 10+ psi to get there, though. I"d love to see a head to head comparison between the two.

[Jeff86]

Originally Posted by 2forme

Yea, a lot of people would jump on and hark the Vortech kit, but IMO, it's a tad overpriced and underwhelming to drive. Can also be a pain to install/take off. But, at least they are finally starting to hit the originally advertised numbers with the new kit. I'm a little concerned that it takes 10+ psi to get there, though. I"d love to see a head to head comparison between the two.

I kinda look at it like they aren't really very comparable. A turbo's always got the upper hand at making power. I think of supercharging as mainly adding moderate power past what can be achieved NA, while trying not to change anything else about the car's character. I think the right PD supercharger might do a better job at that mission than a centri (I've had two roots blowers and I did like them), but I'm no longer expecting much from the twin screw we've been waiting to see for so looooong now.

To be honest, I really don't know what a really small turbo feels like. I've got a GT3076R on my other car and while it spools very quickly, you know it's there and it is a surge of power. Perhaps the AVO's is small enough that it performs much like an SC.

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by mad_sb

Note that the K24 above already has a 20% displacement advantage over the fa20 and less drive train loss (fwd has less loss than rwd which is less than awd). Taking away the displacement and drive train advantage that k24 would be making 175 - 180... right where the fa20 is with a few bolt ons. Not bashing the K series in the least just pointing out that liter to liter and drive train to drive train the numbers are about the same in this case.

Also, what did / do bolt on k20's make at 7,000 rpm? Revs are a huge advantage if the heads and cams are designed for it. and engine that makes 175 whp at 7,000 rpm is making about 130ftlb at 7,000 rpm. An engine that makes 130 ftlb at 8,000 rpm would be making 199whp at 8,000 rpm.

Equal length long tube headers seem to be the first part that allows for significant power gains with tuning. Given another year... cams that peak at 8,000 rpm along with the supporting valve train work and the fa20 could easily be at 230 - 240 whp on pump gas.

Thats not to say it would be cost effective since you have to drop the motor to do cams or head work... i think that is going to be the real weakness with the fa20

Not knocking what you're saying, but it's not just revs. People have been swapping K20's into S2000's because they can make way more power with bolt ons and cams than they can with an F20C, and those rev to 9k.

The K20's are a VERY good engine, and respond very well to pretty simple mods. Not saying there isn't potential with the FA20's at all, but comparing them to K20's is a really high benchmark.

[mad_sb]

Originally Posted by Jeff86

I kinda look at it like they aren't really very comparable. A turbo's always got the upper hand at making power. I think of supercharging as mainly adding moderate power past what can be achieved NA, while trying not to change anything else about the car's character. I think the right PD supercharger might do a better job at that mission than a centri (I've had two roots blowers and I did like them), but I'm no longer expecting much from the twin screw we've been waiting to see for so looooong now.

To be honest, I really don't know what a really small turbo feels like. I've got a GT3076R on my other car and while it spools very quickly, you know it's there and it is a surge of power. Perhaps the AVO's is small enough that it performs much like an SC.

you have to be careful with small turbo's in that the smaller you go the more you limit the top end potential... Personally i want to see what the twinscrew does but, like you said, i'm not expecting much after all the delays.

After years of driving modified factory turbo cars I'm also not in a rush to get away from NA reliability and the not having to worry about it factor. I do think it is going to be cost prohibitive to make the kind of NA power that will keep me happy in the long term. Cams, head work, etc all require pulling the engine and they will be required to make serious NA power, or so it seems at this point in time.

If i do go FI though i am leaning towards supercharger because i"m tired of turbo power delivery characteristics and the other fiddly bits like reliable, repeatable, boost control etc.

I think another year of boosting under the fa20's belt and we should have a lot more data on reliability, or any lack of.

[2forme]

Originally Posted by mad_sb

you have to be careful with small turbo's in that the smaller you go the more you limit the top end potential... Personally i want to see what the twinscrew does but, like you said, i'm not expecting much after all the delays.

After years of driving modified factory turbo cars I'm also not in a rush to get away from NA reliability and the not having to worry about it factor. I do think it is going to be cost prohibitive to make the kind of NA power that will keep me happy in the long term. Cams, head work, etc all require pulling the engine and they will be required to make serious NA power, or so it seems at this point in time.

If i do go FI though i am leaning towards supercharger because i"m tired of turbo power delivery characteristics and the other fiddly bits like reliable, repeatable, boost control etc.

I think another year of boosting under the fa20's belt and we should have a lot more data on reliability, or any lack of.

You should do a google search for "vortech leaking" . The reliability is a non factor between the two different FI platforms.

[mad_sb]

Originally Posted by wparsons

Not knocking what you're saying, but it's not just revs. People have been swapping K20's into S2000's because they can make way more power with bolt ons and cams than they can with an F20C, and those rev to 9k.

The K20's are a VERY good engine, and respond very well to pretty simple mods. Not saying there isn't potential with the FA20's at all, but comparing them to K20's is a really high benchmark.

But they make power because of the heads right? Or more specifically, the k20's responds to bolt ons so well because the factory head flows so well. That's why i was saying revs are a huge advantage IF the heads and cams are designed for it.

Sadly head work on the FA20's is gonna be expensive

[CSI:86]

Is there any engine in the NA 4 cylinder benchmark that is better than the k20, or even equal, or even close to as good?

The reminiscent days of the golden age of Honda...

[LeeMaster]

As far as I know, all the other companies out there have to slap a turbo to equal/surpass the K-power. Not to mention, I knew a few guys who had over 200k miles on their TSX with just proper maintenance schedules. Not likely going to happen with those 4 banger turbos without costing an arm and leg IMO.

[tripjammer]

Too bad Honda can't make awesome engines anymore. Maybe the engine in the next generation intrega (yep they are going to bring it back, the ft86 proves that people want a affordable sports car) and NSX. I still don't think the NSX is going to cost over $80k. I think they want to sell more units compared to the LF-A.