Tada talks FT86 Convertible, BMW, dogs, beer, and spawning multiple 86 models

[bcj]

The Bosch mechanical injection in my Alfa was one of the few things that I never had to do anything with.

Had to clean the points for the spark plugs pretty much every other week.
There were electronic ignition replacements coming out about then, but I didn't get to it.

[Nezz]

Originally Posted by ZDan

You don't want them, so they shouldn't exist at all? Why not?

5-door hatch would allow us to replace wife's Mazda3 with a super-cool low-slung rwd car. That would be FANTASTIC! No one has offered this kind of car in the US since, what, the Datsun 510? Having 4-door and 5-door versions of that car did nothing to diminish its legendary status, btw...

It wasn't a sportscar platform though, and this one is. a 5-door hatch would either be impractical (too little room in the back, too little space in the hatch) or no longer that sporty-- Which would just make it a bit pointless. Besides, would it sell? In the US wagons tend to get killed off faster than you can say "well that's a pity". Plus, a 5-door hatch would just look like a Panamera if they retained the basic dimensions...

It's also worth noting that the 5-door version of the 510 never really gained any notoriety until the 2-doors were depleted. Brand dilution is a very, very real thing-- shooting brakes can be sporty (BMW's proven this, and so have many other makers-- Fast dog-haulers have been made and made pretty many a time). But I really doubt they'd manage to get a 5-door right and have it be affordable.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Nezz

It wasn't a sportscar platform though, and this one is.

I dunno, 55/45 FR 2+2 isn't very "sports car" if you ask me...

a 5-door hatch would either be impractical (too little room in the back, too little space in the hatch)

Some additional space for practically zero additional size/weight is a good bargain. For reference, the Mazda3 5-door weighs 24 lb. more than the 4-door (less than 1%), and has 44% more cargo volume! 5-door hatches make perfect sense except for those who fear "wagon" stigma.

or no longer that sporty-- Which would just make it a bit pointless.

There is ZERO reason that the 5-door should be less sporty.

Besides, would it sell? In the US wagons tend to get killed off faster than you can say "well that's a pity". Plus, a 5-door hatch would just look like a Panamera if they retained the basic dimensions...

??? Panamera is a lower-slung version of a gigantic SUV. A 5-door FT86 would not be remotely like a Panamera.

It's also worth noting that the 5-door version of the 510 never really gained any notoriety until the 2-doors were depleted.

Haven't done marketing research on it, but I *highly* doubt that 510 wagons were only sold to people who were looking for 2-doors...

Brand dilution is a very, very real thing-- shooting brakes can be sporty (BMW's proven this, and so have many other makers-- Fast dog-haulers have been made and made pretty many a time). But I really doubt they'd manage to get a 5-door right and have it be affordable.

There's really little to screw up. A 5-door version would weigh little if any more while offering WAY more utility. "Brand dilution" is IMO nothing to worry about. A 5-door does nothing to diminish the goodness of the existing car.

[Nezz]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I dunno, 55/45 FR 2+2 isn't very "sports car" if you ask me...

Some additional space for practically zero additional size/weight is a good bargain. For reference, the Mazda3 5-door weighs 24 lb. more than the 4-door (less than 1%), and has 44% more cargo volume! 5-door hatches make perfect sense except for those who fear "wagon" stigma.

There is ZERO reason that the 5-door should be less sporty.

??? Panamera is a lower-slung version of a gigantic SUV. A 5-door FT86 would not be remotely like a Panamera.

Haven't done marketing research on it, but I *highly* doubt that 510 wagons were only sold to people who were looking for 2-doors...



There's really little to screw up. A 5-door version would weigh little if any more while offering WAY more utility. "Brand dilution" is IMO nothing to worry about. A 5-door does nothing to diminish the goodness of the existing car.

I can't disagree more. You'd add 6" - 1' of wheelbase to accommodate the rear seat passengers, and if you added 6" you'd have to raise the roofline (and thus the CoG drastically) to accommodate more upright seating -- more glass and more steel up more high. (Worth noting that I strongly prefer shorter wheelbase cars for their more dynamic handling-- for me that's what this car's all about, or I would have just bought a 4-door Commodore SS for "slidey fun".) -- EDIT-- This is where I address 'less sporty'

Being a 5-door hatch, to maintain sensible foot-room whilst retaining the transmission and driveline tunnel will either result in deeper footwells and more ground clearance or that upright seating thing again. -- more 'less sporty'

More doors would increase weight and flexibility, and more glass at the back (There would be more glass-- Side windows, you kinda need these) would hamper the CoG more. A 4-door Mazda3 was conceived as a compromise over a 5-door hatch to get the Wagon-stigma-folks (I'm not one-- I own a Honda Accord wagon and I won't own another sedan, Forester's next on my list to reduce service costs and let me be familiar with a single engine).

This isn't about wagon stigma. I really am worried about brand dilution-- Toyota will happily cash in on the 86's cachet and forget entirely about the reason it had it in the first place. Remember Celica? Remember Soarer? This isn't their first rodeo.

EDIT; Also worth noting a 5-door -- even 3-door-- hatch will tamper with the CoG...

EDIT EDIT; Know the worst part? Toyota already has a 5-door RWD "short" wheelbase platform to slap an "86 inspired" body on. Lexus IS. Don't tempt 'em.

PS; Last but not least, if a FR lightweight short-wheelbase car doesn't say "sports car" to you, I don't know what does. Supercars aren't sportscars, and sportscars don't need gobs of power if they have light weight. A car can be a sportscar and still a 2+2.

[Exhaust]

Originally Posted by russv

No German electronics or fuel pumps please!

but awd..... but racecar!

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Nezz

I can't disagree more. You'd add 6" - 1' of wheelbase to accommodate the rear seat passengers,

Car already has rear-seat passengers. +4" max for more usable rear-seat accomodations. But what do you care if the 2+2 coupe wheelbase doesn't change?

and if you added 6" you'd have to raise the roofline (and thus the CoG drastically) to accommodate more upright seating

Why? If the current roofline is high enough for full-size front-seaters, no more is needed for semi-full-size rear seaters. Unless it's stadium seating...
But again, if the 2+2 coupe isn't altered, why do you care?

-- more glass and more steel up more high.

Not much, talking 24 lb. or less.

Being a 5-door hatch, to maintain sensible foot-room whilst retaining the transmission and driveline tunnel will either result in deeper footwells and more ground clearance or that upright seating thing again. -- more 'less sporty'

??? Given the increased wheelbase, nothing else is needed for rear footroom.

More doors would increase weight and flexibility,

Not necessarily. In most instances, 4-door versions of cars are no more flexible than the 2-doors. Often the 4-door is stiffer!

and more glass at the back (There would be more glass-- Side windows, you kinda need these) would hamper the CoG more.

Not much more weight, very small as a percentage of total car weight. And yet again, what do you care if you're only interested in the coupe version?

This isn't about wagon stigma. I really am worried about brand dilution--

??? What do you care if they already make the car you want? This "brand dilution" idea, that another version of the car would dramatically REDUCE the value or cachet of the existing version, is utter b.s. If you would really enjoy your car *less* only because a 4-door or 5-door version exists, you have greater problems than owning an FT86 can possibly address!

EDIT; Also worth noting a 5-door -- even 3-door-- hatch will tamper with the CoG...

Effect would be minimal and totally not detectable from the driver's seat, but again what do you care about the 5- or 3-door if you own the 2-door coupe?!

Know the worst part? Toyota already has a 5-door RWD "short" wheelbase platform to slap an "86 inspired" body on. Lexus IS. Don't tempt 'em.

The IS is a bigger/heavier/more-expensive car. If they want to do a 5-door IS, FINE, I say! But they wouldn't make money on it at FR-S prices...

PS; Last but not least, if a FR lightweight short-wheelbase car doesn't say "sports car" to you, I don't know what does. Supercars aren't sportscars, and sportscars don't need gobs of power if they have light weight. A car can be a sportscar and still a 2+2.

You're complaining about the compromises of other versions as if they would equally apply to the *already compromised* 2+2 version. It *is* compromised by its +2-ness. 55/45 distribution is not anything to be proud of! Agree that "supercars" aren't sports cars. But to me, a Miata is a sports car. FR-S/BRZ are sporty coupes.

If they would make a 2-seat version with windshield/firewall/engine/front-seaters moved a couple of feet aft, now *that* would be a "sports car" to me. I love the car, but it is too compromised to be a true sports car by my definition. It's a BRILLIANT modern 240SX. Hopefully they'll do right and make a modern 240Z version! In addition to a 3-door, 4-door, and 5-door.

[Nezz]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Car already has rear-seat passengers. +4" max for more usable rear-seat accomodations. But what do you care if the 2+2 coupe wheelbase doesn't change?

Why? If the current roofline is high enough for full-size front-seaters, no more is needed for semi-full-size rear seaters. Unless it's stadium seating...
But again, if the 2+2 coupe isn't altered, why do you care?

Not much, talking 24 lb. or less.

??? Given the increased wheelbase, nothing else is needed for rear footroom.

Not necessarily. In most instances, 4-door versions of cars are no more flexible than the 2-doors. Often the 4-door is stiffer!

Not much more weight, very small as a percentage of total car weight. And yet again, by the what do you care if you're only interested in the coupe version?

??? What do you care if they already make the car you want? This "brand dilution" idea, that another version of the car would dramatically REDUCE the value or cachet of the existing version, is utter b.s. If you would really enjoy your car *less* only because a 4-door or 5-door version exists, you have greater problems than owning an FT86 can possibly address!

Effect would be minimal and totally not detectable from the driver's seat, but again what do you care about the 5- or 3-door if you own the 2-door coupe?!

The IS is a bigger/heavier/more-expensive car. If they want to do a 5-door IS, FINE, I say! But they wouldn't make money on it at FR-S prices...


You're complaining about the compromises of other versions as if they would equally apply to the *already compromised* 2+2 version. It *is* compromised by its +2-ness. 55/45 distribution is not anything to be proud of! Agree that "supercars" aren't sports cars. But to me, a Miata is a sports car. FR-S/BRZ are sporty coupes.

If they would make a 2-seat version with windshield/firewall/engine/front-seaters moved a couple of feet aft, now *that* would be a "sports car" to me. I love the car, but it is too compromised to be a true sports car by my definition. It's a BRILLIANT modern 240SX. Hopefully they'll do right and make a modern 240Z version! In addition to a 3-door, 4-door, and 5-door.

A 4 inch stretch wouldn't give you usable front and rear doors. Six inches would but that would require more upright seats to allow egress. A small amount of stretch could be mitigated by foot well depth, that's where that comes into it. So either a fair stretch or lose the CoG.

You'd gain a lot more than 24lbs, sorry. Get the back windows off a new Auris and a 2*2 sheet of steel with a basic cross brace underneath. That's a rough idea. Remember we're changing the rear windows from small triangular shapes to full operable windows. That glass is up high too. Also you've got more framework in the doors and hatch. Hatches are much heavier than boots. That's where most of the Mazda3's extra weight is from I'm sure.

You say this car has nothing to be proud of handling wise? Mind explaining why so many members of the press count it over the "uncompromising" MX5?

And the reason why brand dilution worries me is that if they lose focus, we'll lose the ZN6 as it is today.

So you know my perspective, I'm using the A31 and S13 platforms as comparators. Same generation Nissan platforms with very similar technology and obvious shared development. One a from-the-beginning 2+2,the other a sedan.

[Colominicano]

the red one looks amazing!!! must...have...it!!!

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Nezz

A 4 inch stretch wouldn't give you usable front and rear doors. Six inches would but that would require more upright seats to allow egress.

I don't think seatback angle would be dictated by anything other than driver preference as in current car.

. Obviously A small amount of stretch could be mitigated by foot well depth, that's where that comes into it. So either a fair stretch or lose the CoG.

C.G moves upward half an inch to 18.5". BFD. Again, 2+2 coupe is unaffected so why do you care?

You'd gain a lot more than 24lbs, sorry.

+24 lb. for 5-door vs. 4-door.

Get the back windows off a new Auris and a 2*2 sheet of steel with a basic cross brace underneath. That's a rough idea. Remember we're changing the rear windows from small triangular shapes to full operable windows. That glass is up high too. Also you've got more framework in the doors and hatch. Hatches are much heavier than boots. That's where most of the Mazda3's extra weight is from I'm sure.

MUCH heavier? Not really. A percent or two at most.

You say this car has nothing to be proud of handling wise?

I NEVER said that. Handling is stellar (excepting sub-par tires) and I never said otherwise. I said that f/r distribution isn't anything to brag about for an FR car. It isn't.

And the reason why brand dilution worries me is that if they lose focus, we'll lose the ZN6 as it is today.

If they do a 4-door it shouldn't affect the coupe. 510 and E30 coupes were about as compromised by "+2"ness as the FT86 twins. they didn't suffer from having 4-door versions.

So you know my perspective, I'm using the A31 and S13 platforms as comparators. Same generation Nissan platforms with very similar technology and obvious shared development. One a from-the-beginning 2+2,the other a sedan.

There are greater differences than that. Nissan hasn't tried to build a minimalist lightweight rwd sedan in ages. Here's hoping that Toyota *does*.

[Snoopyalien24]

Originally Posted by Zaku

Here's a good question, Shooting brake if it happens, is it anytime within 2 years. Or are we looking at another gen of 86 to see it. Cause if it's within those years I'll hold out XD

I think Toyota is going to milk the 86 and give us a bunch of versions.

What do they have to lose? It will destroy every single niche.

Miata CHECK

Golf CHECK

New version of 240sx, S2000, RWD Integra, poormans Porsche

it just fits

[Nezz]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I don't think seatback angle would be dictated by anything other than driver preference as in current car. C.G moves upward half an inch to 18.5". BFD. Again, 2+2 coupe is unaffected so why do you care?

+24 lb. for 5-door vs. 4-door.


MUCH heavier? Not really. A percent or two at most.

I NEVER said that. Handling is stellar (excepting sub-par tires) and I never said otherwise. I said that f/r distribution isn't anything to brag about for an FR car. It isn't.

If they do a 4-door it shouldn't affect the coupe. 510 and E30 coupes were about as compromised by "+2"ness as the FT86 twins. they didn't suffer from having 4-door versions.


There are greater differences than that. Nissan hasn't tried to build a minimalist lightweight rwd sedan in ages. Here's hoping that Toyota *does*.

Right, point by point.

You'd need a significant stretch to leave seatback angle as is (thus 1'), to allow ingress and egress on a short stretch (6" minimum) you'd need to move the front seats forwards a reasonable amount, which means lifting them to provide the legroom, lifting the dash, etcetera, which lifts the CG more than half an inch, especially with a driver. Half an inch is a big angular moment, too. An inch even moreso. Higher the roofline goes, weaker the structure gets, more torsional rigidity structure required, heavier it gets, too.

I care because if the sedan slouches and they build the 2+2 off the sedan/hatch platform to save costs it's going to ruin the car.

Yes, much heavier. From tiny triangular window to full size glass is about 4kg the difference, add a winding mechanism, doorframe etcetera, flat-fold rear seats (we're talking hatches, aren't we? People aren't going to settle for less), that big rear glass panel instead of a slim screen, more steel and a more expanded crash structure and all of a sudden you've got 40kg. That's ninety pounds, give or take. Far more than 1%. Don't forget that the longer it is the more bracing it needs for torsional rigidity and that the drivetrain extends with the wheelbase (which also reduces performance).

EDIT; Evidence in the VW Polo (2004 was what I found first)-- 1,090kg 3-door (shorter wheelbase) 1,135kg 4-door (longer wheelbase) -- And these aren't even RWD. --Incorrect, see below
RE-EDIT; The Polo 4 door and 3 door share a wheelbase, all that weight is just in the overhang. 5 door hatch is 1,167kg, same wheelbase again.

F/R numbers are just paper racing. It doesn't necessarily make a car handle better all by itself.

510s and E30s aren't 2+2s, they're proper coupes-- I can fit in the back of an E30 coupe reasonably comfortably. I can't fit in my Silvia or 86. They're 2+2s.
EDIT; Wheelbase of 2-door and 4-door 510 are identical.

And I'm fine with them building a minimalist FR sedan-- They already did, the Altezza. Wasn't that long ago and it was a stonking car, just didn't get outside Japan-- Great performance (200hp I4), light weight with good weight distribution. Sadly the Lexus badged IS250/IS200 wasn't as nice. But if they start to dilute this surge of vigour, I seriously think we'll lose what made this car special. If they go through two or three models and the coupe is always a category smasher, super light weight and precise, no problem. But it is Toyota, like I said, they've stuffed this up before.

EDIT; In fact, you know what? I have the perfect example of what I'm afraid of.

240Z to 260Z. They made it longer and they fluffed it. Simple as that.

Sorry for taking so long to reply, too. Had to drive back from Echuca.

[Nezz]

Oh. A quick note on why I'm talking about seatback angle.

Seatback angle determines roofline in part by how "canted" your passengers are. Obviously you lean back in a sportscar like an 86. However this also means you need more room between the seats to be comfortable.

If the back of the seat is tilted more, it takes up more of the total "length" (frontmost to rearmost point of the seat), increasing the overall length of a usable seat. Tipping the seats upwards fixes a lot of this problem (try to find a very small car with highly tilted seats and room for four!) but lifts the roofline. If it doesn't lift the roofline then it lowers the footwells.

EDIT; I've owned Italian cars where tilting up the seatbacks didn't raise the roofline or lower the footwells. Anyone with pudge (myself included) disliked said cars quite a lot and others just didn't fit.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by kanundrum

http://jalopnik.com/scion-fr-s-boss-...e-mo-453530305 Awesomeee

@ichitaka05 I didn't know your name was Jason Torchinsky, since that guy claims to have invented the 86 shooting brake.

Not like your chop has been out since late 2009/early 2010 or anything...

Thanks, Jalopnik! Credit thieves around the world appreciate your support!

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Dimman

@ichitaka05 I didn't know your name was Jason Torchinsky, since that guy claims to have invented the 86 shooting brake.

Not like your chop has been out since late 2009/early 2010 or anything...

Thanks, Jalopnik! Credit thieves around the world appreciate your support!

Lmao, yeah that chop have been around... but rarely get any credit

...c'est la vie