Let's Talk Speakers

[ecko04]

So here's the dilemma. We won't get into brands, just options.

The "premium" sound system is an 8 speaker system. 6.5" in the front doors, tweeters & 3.5" in the dash, 4" in the rear.

Only the front door speakers are driven off the factory amp. All the factory speakers are 2 ohm.

So when switching out speakers and adding the 4-channel amp of your choice, what would you do?

Keeping in mind a few goals:

1) Retain all speakers
2) Minimalist approach (i.e. no building larger mounts to accommodate larger than 4" speakers in the rear)
3) Budget conscious
4) Retaining factory premium headunit or changing to a headunit with 3 sets of preouts.

I was sitting here kicking around some ideas.

1) Replace the front door speakers with components (that would take care of the 6.5" woofer and tweeter) and run those off the front channel of the amplifier. Replace the 3.5" speakers and run those off the rear channel of the amplifier. Replace the 4" speakers and run those off the headunit.

2) Replace the front door speakers with components (that would take care of the 6.5" woofer and tweeter) and run those off the front channel of the amplifier. Replace the 3.5" speakers and run those off the rear channel of the amplifier. Replace the 4" speakers and rewire the factory amplifier to run those.

3) Replace the front door speakers with components (that would take care of the 6.5" woofer and tweeter) and run those off the front channel of the amplifier. Replace the 3.5" speakers run those off the head unit. Replace the 4" speakers and run those off the rear channel of the amp.

3) Wire all the replacement speakers, if they're 2 ohm, in series and let the 4-channel handle them all.

4) Wire all the replacement speakers, if they're 4 ohm, in parallel and let the 4-channel handle them all.

Comments and opinions are welcome.

[pheoxs]

If you insist of retaining all 8 speakers I would purchase a set of 3-way components and run those in the door / in the dash and run them all off the front channel of your amp. Then just replace the rear 4" with new speakers and run them off the other channel of your amp and call it a day.

That being said I'm running 2way components up front and scrapping the 3.5" all together as have a few people in their audio builds.

[ecko04]

Originally Posted by pheoxs

If you insist of retaining all 8 speakers I would purchase a set of 3-way components and run those in the door / in the dash and run them all off the front channel of your amp. Then just replace the rear 4" with new speakers and run them off the other channel of your amp and call it a day.

That being said I'm running 2way components up front and scrapping the 3.5" all together as have a few people in their audio builds.

Well yes, the intent is to keep them. The 3.5" are there to bring the stage up to ear level. Are they "needed" in an aftermarket amplified system, no. But for the price of 3.5" speakers and for retention of an 8 speaker system, I'll keep them, but replace them with a better brand.

IMHO, 3-way component systems are garbage. I wouldn't purchase one over a 2-way even if it were cheaper.

I know which way I'm personally leaning. This thread was created as an informational for those who don't.

[Ruckus]

i just purchased a set of c5-653 for like half price. I already have an excelon(x450-4) amp and sub in the back. But Im not to sure about how to wire this bad boy up.

Are all the speakers wired in series or parallel?

The main question i have is the rear 4 inch speaker. Do I have just splice it in with one of the other speakers and run it of the excelon? Or leave it on the factory amp? Or just delete it all together?

[f0rge]

I'm interested to know why you think 3-way components are garbage, I've never had experience with them personally but they seem like a perfect fit for this car.

[ecko04]

Originally Posted by f0rge

I'm interested to know why you think 3-way components are garbage, I've never had experience with them personally but they seem like a perfect fit for this car.

Well it depends on if we're talking about the same thing. Are you talking about a true 3-way? As in tweeter, midrange, midbass and subwoofer? If so then I suggest sticking to a 2-way. The more speakers you have the more complicated things become and the harder they are to fix. Getting the midbass to play in phase with the mids and getting all the time correction right is a pain and since the only real gain to a 3-way is better midbass aka the dedicated midbass speakers, i'll do without. A 2-way system will almost always sound better with less work.

The push for 3-way is clear. Let each driver play a defined range and avoid wave distortion. This approach is used in a lot of high end home audio. but in a car, it's hard to do. You really need to keep the speakers within inches of each other to give a point source effect or else, you have some real tuning and positioning to do!

Tuning them requires understanding IDT and IID and thus, setting your crossover points to suit. Choosing a good 3-way speaker system should involve a woofer that plays as low as possible, at least down to 50 hz comfortably. Then you let the sub play sub bass. It is hard to find a 6" that can do 50 hz at the level you want it to.

So when I say i'd keep all 8 speakers, it isn't to use the 3.5" as a 3-way. It's to use the 3.5" to bring up the stage to ear level. There can't be a realistic expectation of the 3.5", due to its location, being a true midbass speaker, hence why I said i'll keep the 2-way and simply add 3.5".

[ecko04]

Originally Posted by Ruckus

i just purchased a set of c5-653 for like half price. I already have an excelon(x450-4) amp and sub in the back. But Im not to sure about how to wire this bad boy up.

Are all the speakers wired in series or parallel?

The main question i have is the rear 4 inch speaker. Do I have just splice it in with one of the other speakers and run it of the excelon? Or leave it on the factory amp? Or just delete it all together?

Well it depends. How is your Excelon connected now? Are you bridging channels to run the sub or do you have a sub amp as well?

[itsfun]

I thought the front two speakers were both 4ohm wired in series thus appearing as 2ohm to the head unit?

Here is my approach which I consider minimalist. Run 7-8" speakers in the doors. Run a 1"-1.5" tweeter in the dash where the 3.5" used to be. Crossover at 1.5-2.5kHz (depending on speakers). Aftermarket HU - DEH80PRS is perfect - and hook speakers up with active x-over, EQ & Time Alignment. Deaden the doors. = simple and awesome system! Add a small amp if I desire.

Going with two/three way speakers, three component speakers, rear fill speakers... And attempting to run off of factory equipment seems like a nightmare. Given how crappy the stock system is, I doubt the 3.5" was used to move the stage foreword, but only to sell people on "8 speakers." Placing the tweeter where the 3.5 is gives you options in both placement and angle. Also, putting an aftermarket tweeter where the current one is means you'll have to hack up your grill and probably make replacement difficult.

Remember the KISS rule and this will be so much easier. This is not solely targeted to the OP but everyone, as that was the intent of this thread..

I haven't completed my build yet so what do I know...

[ecko04]

Originally Posted by itsfun

I thought the front two speakers were both 4ohm wired in series thus appearing as 2ohm to the head unit?

Here is my approach which I consider minimalist. Run 7-8" speakers in the doors. Run a 1"-1.5" tweeter in the dash where the 3.5" used to be. Crossover at 1.5-2.5kHz (depending on speakers). Aftermarket HU - DEH80PRS is perfect - and hook speakers up with active x-over, EQ & Time Alignment. Deaden the doors. = simple and awesome system! Add a small amp if I desire.

Going with two/three way speakers, three component speakers, rear fill speakers... And attempting to run off of factory equipment seems like a nightmare. Given how crappy the stock system is, I doubt the 3.5" was used to move the stage foreword, but only to sell people on "8 speakers." Placing the tweeter where the 3.5 is gives you options in both placement and angle. Also, putting an aftermarket tweeter where the current one is means you'll have to hack up your grill and probably make replacement difficult.

Remember the KISS rule and this will be so much easier. This is not solely targeted to the OP but everyone, as that was the intent of this thread..

I haven't completed my build yet so what do I know...

I'll respectfully disagree with you. Listen to a standard system and listen to one with the 8 speaker setup. You'll notice that the 3.5's were definitely there to bring the stage forward.

Furthermore, I can think of at least 3 different ways to retain a 1" tweeter with 3.5" speakers without hacking the grill and making replacement difficult. In fact, utilizing 3.5" speakers and 1" tweeters, for me, would be an easier install than only using tweeters.

Not to mention even with the 8 speaker system, at least in the FR-S, all 8 speakers are not being run off the headunit. Tweeters, 3.5" and rear speakers are ran off the headunit. The front door speakers are ran off the factory amplifier.

To each his own. Good luck with your build.

[cruzinbill]

Originally Posted by ecko04

I'll respectfully disagree with you. Listen to a standard system and listen to one with the 8 speaker setup. You'll notice that the 3.5's were definitely there to bring the stage forward.

Furthermore, I can think of at least 3 different ways to retain a 1" tweeter with 3.5" speakers without hacking the grill and making replacement difficult. In fact, utilizing 3.5" speakers and 1" tweeters, for me, would be an easier install than only using tweeters.

Not to mention even with the 8 speaker system, at least in the FR-S, all 8 speakers are not being run off the headunit. Tweeters, 3.5" and rear speakers are ran off the headunit. The front door speakers are ran off the factory amplifier.

To each his own. Good luck with your build.

Are you implying the non bespoke system has less than 8 speakers? If so that would be wrong. Only difference in fr-s systems is the radio. Also I know for a fact you can get good staging with a 2 way system. I've said it before and ill say it again. Going 3 way is a waste of money unless you plan to run active with a dsp. Finally, there is no point in replacing the rears if you want proper stage drop them, if you want rear fill oem is good enough if tuned.

[ecko04]

Originally Posted by cruzinbill

Are you implying the non bespoke system has less than 8 speakers? If so that would be wrong. Only difference in fr-s systems is the radio. Also I know for a fact you can get good staging with a 2 way system. I've said it before and ill say it again. Going 3 way is a waste of money unless you plan to run active with a dsp. Finally, there is no point in replacing the rears if you want proper stage drop them, if you want rear fill oem is good enough if tuned.

Selective reading I see. This is my exact reply from post 6. Furthermore, I never implied that the non-bespoke system had less than 8 speakers. I stated, listen to a "standard system".

Originally Posted by ecko04

Well it depends on if we're talking about the same thing. Are you talking about a true 3-way? As in tweeter, midrange, midbass and subwoofer? If so then I suggest sticking to a 2-way. The more speakers you have the more complicated things become and the harder they are to fix. Getting the midbass to play in phase with the mids and getting all the time correction right is a pain and since the only real gain to a 3-way is better midbass aka the dedicated midbass speakers, i'll do without. A 2-way system will almost always sound better with less work.

The push for 3-way is clear. Let each driver play a defined range and avoid wave distortion. This approach is used in a lot of high end home audio. but in a car, it's hard to do. You really need to keep the speakers within inches of each other to give a point source effect or else, you have some real tuning and positioning to do!

Tuning them requires understanding IDT and IID and thus, setting your crossover points to suit. Choosing a good 3-way speaker system should involve a woofer that plays as low as possible, at least down to 50 hz comfortably. Then you let the sub play sub bass. It is hard to find a 6" that can do 50 hz at the level you want it to.

So when I say i'd keep all 8 speakers, it isn't to use the 3.5" as a 3-way. It's to use the 3.5" to bring up the stage to ear level. There can't be a realistic expectation of the 3.5", due to its location, being a true midbass speaker, hence why I said i'll keep the 2-way and simply add 3.5".

[cruzinbill]

Originally Posted by ecko04

Selective reading I see. This is my exact reply from post 6. Furthermore, I never implied that the non-bespoke system had less than 8 speakers. I stated, listen to a "standard system".

I don't understand what your saying then, there is no standard or premium system. They are both the same aside from the radio. Imagining is also the same between them.

As for the 3 way thing, if you are going to run a 2 way component set(midbass in the door and tweeter on the dash) and then run a 3.5 coax on the dash.... its still a quasi 3way setup with a second tweeter. Its even harder to image that correctly over a real 3way setup. Either way, a 2 way setup really isnt hard to image in this car.

Have you decided what stuff you are running yet?

[ecko04]

Originally Posted by cruzinbill

Have you decided what stuff you are running yet?

I'm going back and forth between Polk & Infinity, primarily because I don't know how I want to wire them yet (if I want to amp them all or allow something to run off the head unit).

What's a given is the JL XD 400/4.

[cruzinbill]

Originally Posted by ecko04

I'm going back and forth between Polk & Infinity, primarily because I don't know how I want to wire them yet (if I want to amp them all or allow something to run off the head unit).

What's a given is the JL XD 400/4.

Id go with the polks then. The infinity tweeters are gonna be horrid reflecting of the windshield since they are really bright as is.