Spotted, a new viewpoint

[ThugNasty]

Wait, what was this thread about again?

[shawnperolis]

Originally Posted by ThugNasty

There are plenty of "non-enthusiasts" that drive manual..
Honestly, who cares if fellow 86 drivers are enthusiasts or not. Whether it's MT or AT, whether they track it, daily, or weekend drive it, whether it's bone stock or modded beyond recognition.
As long as they enjoy the car they're driving, I'm happy for them.

You really think that a car that is ONLY offered with a manual transmission wouldn't have weeded out a lot of non-enthusiasts? I respect your opinion and you can think however you want, but accusing me of saying a bunch of terrible things that someone else said and then demeaning my pretty valid points aren't very cool, bro.

[rhoyle]

My 67 year old mother, who has always driven manual transmissions, drives a TT and a Cooper S Convertible. I doubt either has ever seen 5000RPMs or taken a corner in a spirited manner. But she likes them. She's not an enthusiast and probably couldn't tell you how to change the oil. But she's driving a manual....

[FRiSson]

Originally Posted by Splat

I remember the time when I was like "oooh another FRS" now I am, oh sh@@ another FRS. I feel like the cool factor is going away. Everywhere I turn I see an FRS. Today, I picked up a import tuner mag....tons of FRS.. and a few ads geared to just frs/brz... I get a newspaper from parking garage.. FRS on front page.Convertable..... I go to Dallas , Lovefield airport a black FRS pulling out.
FRS's everywhere...and that is just today!
So, whats big deal, Everyother car I have had , many others also have, so why does it bother me with the FRS? It was special, to me, new , only few sold in my area, never saw one until the dealership, and it was that way for a long time after it left with me. I guess I just need to make mine, mine ...however most mods I might do are mass marketed, so nothing really special. Any of you who got your cars early feel same way?

You clearly are motivated by what economists call "scarcity goods". These are goods that some people covet simply because most others don't have them. Sadly, the thrill of scarcity goods rarely lasts long. So you are doomed to a cycle of dumping the old and buying the newest. This is akin to the guy who has a new relationship every 3-4 weeks. After the initial thrill is gone, there is no desire to slog on to the next level of the relationship, one which offers less thrills and excitement and involves compromises and changed expectations.

To gratify your urge to have goods that make you feel better because other people envy you, you must strive to buy goods that remain very scarce. Since it is inevitable that the FR-S/BRZ become more common and more familiar to the public, you need to change the car for something more exotic. For example, be the first in your region to get the new convertible version - that will generate enormous buzz. You may also be able to satisfy your desires by customizing your vehicle in such a way that it becomes coveted again. However, it is unlikely that the thrill will last that long.

[ThugNasty]

Originally Posted by shawnperolis

You really think that a car that is ONLY offered with a manual transmission wouldn't have weeded out a lot of non-enthusiasts? I respect your opinion and you can think however you want, but accusing me of saying a bunch of terrible things that someone else said and then demeaning my pretty valid points aren't very cool, bro.

Yes, it would have weeded out a pretty good amount, but there would still be plenty non-enthusiasts. I just don't understand why it bothers you so much. If you're so enthused with your car, why does it matter if others feel the same or not?

I do recall your original post saying that driving a MT makes you "cool" and "exclusive" and that people with AT "can't drive". Your words.

[shawnperolis]

Originally Posted by ThugNasty

Yes, it would have weeded out a pretty good amount, but there would still be plenty non-enthusiasts. I just don't understand why it bothers you so much. If you're so enthused with your car, why does it matter if others feel the same or not?

I do recall your original post saying that driving a MT makes you "cool" and "exclusive" and that people with AT "can't drive". Your words.

But interpret it how you will. Knowing that every FRS or BRZ that you see is driven by a like-minded person would have made it a more "cool" car. It really doesn't bother me that other people have autos, but it apparently automatic owners are really defensive, because I just got flamed for like 5 pages.

For the record, anyone can drive an auto and not everyone can drive a stick. That would be the definition of exclusive, a limited number of people have access to something. I don't see why everyone got all butthurt about that, that is what the topic was started over. Exclusivity, and rarity. Usually go hand in hand. I posted my opinion and got a lot of crap for it.

What I say doesn't really matter at this point though - you guys are going to keep attacking me to defend your choice of the automatic transmission and spout a bunch of anecdotal evidence and half-truths about exotics being automatics (double clutches be mad different than slushboxes, son) and even though I'm not the one who was being offensive about it, I got all of the shit directed at me.

[rhoyle]

I think it's funny that people are wanting their sub-30k car to be exclusive at all. There is a whole lot of give a shit on here that I guess I've outgrown or something. It's your car enjoy it. Stop worrying about what anyone else does, says, or thinks.

For the record, anyone can drive a stick. There are dozens of people who learned how to drive a stick on their FR-S/BRZ. It's not exclusive. It's just a matter of preference.

Incidentally, I am the one who brought up the PDK and Ferrari transmissions. They have no clutch. They're automatics. The driving experience isn't different than a paddle shifted slushbox.

And I drive a stick.

[DarkSunrise]

By way of context, my FR-S is a manual. My GTI is a dual-clutch/automatic.

Even though I love manuals and have driven manual for 15+ years now, I can see the appeal of automatics. The GTI w/automatic accelerates seamlessly like a freight train and doesn't lose boost between shifts. Upshifts and downshifts with the paddle shifters are instantaneous and don't disrupt the car's balance mid-turn. And of course you can throw it into full automatic for city traffic and lazy cruising.

I still prefer manuals, but automatics can be fun in their own right.

[KSC]

Originally Posted by ThugNasty

Wait, what was this thread about again?

Zombies, of course.

[ThugNasty]

Originally Posted by shawnperolis

For the record, anyone can drive an auto and not everyone can drive a stick. That would be the definition of exclusive, a limited number of people have access to something. I don't see why everyone got all butthurt about that, that is what the topic was started over. Exclusivity, and rarity. Usually go hand in hand. I posted my opinion and got a lot of crap for it.

That's not true. Plenty of people/children can't drive at all. And those who drive automatic can easily learn to drive stick in 20 minutes. But yes, I suppose MT drivers are more exclusive than AT.

Originally Posted by shawnperolis

But interpret it how you will. Knowing that every FRS or BRZ that you see is driven by a like-minded person would have made it a more "cool" car. It really doesn't bother me that other people have autos, but it apparently automatic owners are really defensive, because I just got flamed for like 5 pages.

What I say doesn't really matter at this point though - you guys are going to keep attacking me to defend your choice of the automatic transmission and spout a bunch of anecdotal evidence and half-truths about exotics being automatics (double clutches be mad different than slushboxes, son) and even though I'm not the one who was being offensive about it, I got all of the shit directed at me.

Well, you kind of asked for it by insulting AT drivers on a forum with a bunch of AT drivers on it.. But I guess my point to both you and the OP is that exclusivity shouldn't matter as much are you are making it out to. New cars will come out and be exclusive for a while, then they'll be all over the place. A true "enthusiast" would be content in his FR-S, even while seeing one at every stop light. Exclusivity shouldn't be one of your priorities unless you really just want to impress people/look cool/feel superior.

[KSC]

In the end, because the majority of any Professinal motorsports drivers are going to be driving MT, it could be said that MT is the method of driving preferred by the best drivers in the world, right? With that being said, and I'm not saying it's fact, isn't there a perception that if the best drivers are driving MT, then AT could be dubbed inferior to the average enthusiast? Pro basketball players don't wear Keds or play with balls from Walmart, right? Of course they could, and they are still going to be awesome, but because they do utilize the "best" equiptment, society's perception is that any other kind is automatically dubbed inferior. Does that make sense?

Also, and maybe I'm giving some of our more abrasive members here the benefit of the doubt, but maybe, what some of the MT drivers are suggesting is that AT drivers who have never driven an MT don't know what they are missing? Sure, there's all sorts of reasons why someone may prefer AT over MT. Most of them have been stated in here already, however, to those that have never tried it, how are you so sure you won't love it even more than an MT?

I just think everyone should be able to drive both. What's the harm in that? Why limit yourself to a certain car JUST because it doesn't come in AT?

[NemesisPrime909]

Originally Posted by shawnperolis

But interpret it how you will. Knowing that every FRS or BRZ that you see is driven by a like-minded person would have made it a more "cool" car. It really doesn't bother me that other people have autos, but it apparently automatic owners are really defensive, because I just got flamed for like 5 pages.

For the record, anyone can drive an auto and not everyone can drive a stick. That would be the definition of exclusive, a limited number of people have access to something. I don't see why everyone got all butthurt about that, that is what the topic was started over. Exclusivity, and rarity. Usually go hand in hand. I posted my opinion and got a lot of crap for it.

What I say doesn't really matter at this point though - you guys are going to keep attacking me to defend your choice of the automatic transmission and spout a bunch of anecdotal evidence and half-truths about exotics being automatics (double clutches be mad different than slushboxes, son) and even though I'm not the one who was being offensive about it, I got all of the shit directed at me.

Dude You flat out insulted alot of people by making a blanket statement. and Many reacted accordingly. You pretty much brought it upon yourself.

But you and the OP take some solace from this, There's a lot of FRS-BRZ meets going on across the nation. at least you have that. Yes the Exclusivity will go away. but that's not what this car was about. so it was to be expected. Remember the GT-R? and how everyone wanted one and couldn't stop talking about it? all that died down after about 2 years I don't expect anything different for the twins.

The only difference for me is I hated The GTR from the get go (more tech than analogue) and I love the twins.

but as I said before, you can take joy from the fact there are enthusiasts for the twins, and at certain points in the year, you can drive to various meets where there will be people who feel just as passionate about the car as you do.

so try to be a bit more optimistic.

[Porsche]

Originally Posted by rhoyle

Incidentally, I am the one who brought up the PDK and Ferrari transmissions. They have no clutch. They're automatics.

Sure they have clutches.

In fact they have TWO separate clutches. It's like they have a pair of gearboxes and swap back and forth between them. That's why they're called "double-clutch" gearboxes. Porsche PDK "Doppel-Kupplung(sp?)".

What they lack is a clutch PEDAL in the driver's compartment.

They are not automatics in the traditional sense. They are auto(mated)-MANUALS with all the benefits of a traditional manual gearbox; they are controlled by servo-hydraulic mechanisms that do the shifting as instructed by the computer controlled system activated when the driver clicks the paddle for an upshift or downshift.

They're remarkably clever.

The reason they can shift so fast, is that for many of the shifts they are not shifting at all; the next gear has already been selected and when you click the paddle for another upshift, the system disengages the clutch #1 for the current gear while simultaneously engaging the clutch #2 for the pre-selected next gear. It occurs almost instantaneously.

You might want to read a bit about these things. It's impressive to see the ingenious solutions the talented engineers come up with.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by shawnperolis

But interpret it how you will. Knowing that every FRS or BRZ that you see is driven by a like-minded person would have made it a more "cool" car.....

For the record, anyone can drive an auto and not everyone can drive a stick. That would be the definition of exclusive, a limited number of people have access to something.....

Just so we are clear, you have a right to your opinion, I just don't understand it. Being an enthusiast has nothing to do with a preference in transmission any more than it does a preference in color, or tires or turbo vs supercharger.

Take the two points you make above.

Limiting any car to an AT does not mean only "enthusiasts" will drive it, or make all drivers like-minded. There is no such thing with any car. There are Ferrari drivers that aren't enthusiasts, they can just afford it for whatever purpose, and they think it's cool. Or, like was mentioned on a recent Top Gear USA episode, the husband bought it for the wife to make up for sleeping with the nanny.

On your second point, I can teach nearly anyone in about 30 minutes to drive a MT. Heck, I drove one when I was 8 years old. Pretty much anyone that drove a car before the 80's learned how to do it. Its not exactly rocket science, and doesn't really prove anything or differentiate you in any way.

That's just my prospective on it. This is a chicken and egg thing. MT drivers call AT drivers "names" or question their abilities, and somehow we are supposed to just take it as fact without trying to explain we see it differently.

I'm not attacking you any more than you claim to be attacking AT drivers. We just have a different opinion about whether having to press a clutch pedal differentiates your ability to drive the car.

I say it doesn't, you say it does. OK, its all good.

:happy0180: