The Occupy Movement

[Longhorn248]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

You mention that this can lead to "overthrow the government" sentiment, but seem to have a high opinion of these people. To me it looks like most of them are relatively uninformed; What are they doing protesting Wall Street when the culprit is the government and powerful corporization/union lobbyists? In addition, I've seen a lot of people who seem to be confused about the "1%" rhetoric thrown around. The top 1% wealthiest don't represent the majority of the corrupt at all. Their sentiments aren't totally unjustified, but they are directing their anger at the wrong people.

But I agree, a lot of stuff needs to be done. Perhaps we will see a government collapse of some sort on some scale.

I agree with pretty much everything here.

[nrclptcnsmniak]

Ron Paul 2012?

There are quite a few rotten apples in the bunch at OWS. I feel more are doing harm than any good. But in history everytime there has been a shift in mankind economically or socially it has always been extremely turbulent. Thats why I feel its only going to get worse (worst?) :P... I agree they are totally going at the wrong people they really should be asking for government reform and not so much begging the 1% to pay more in taxes :/. It just seems like that the OWS melting pot does not have one sole objective. It seems like everybody is there for different reasons. And the police brutality doesnt help either.

I am 23 and growing up I was always told you need to obtain an education so you can get a great job and not have the hardships we once faced when we were younger. Parents always stating that we work hard so our kids dont have to, and somewhere along the lines I feel this was embedded into our work ethic. I do agree with some of the "older" crowd when they state that todays youth is not willing to do what it takes to "obtain the american dream". A lot of us have become lazy or just really believe that things are owed to us. We go to school, get into college, graduate college and should land a great job in our field right? WRONG. Thats La La land maybe plausible in a great economy but we all know the economy has its ups and downs and our economy is in really bad shape as of now. I have been following OWS since it started and some of the older crowd are upset as well just as upset as the younger crowd and our government does have a lot of fixing to do. The good I see coming from OWS is there is not a single leader. Meaning the police can arrest and do as they please to anybody and its not going to stop the movement. Unlike MLKJ or Malcom X. Another good thing coming from OWS is awareness because before OWS I had not clue about our troubles in America. But they really need to organize better and start making some demands that are clear and they really really need to shower :P... Some of us are just fortunate enough to have jobs and decent ones at that. OWS is going in our history books I just hope I dont need to buy a gun to protect myself from riots or "overthrow" if things get out of hand because I really really hate guns.

[Zgrinch]

Goverment is the real problem by advancing the entitlement programs and then leveraging the class warfare arguement to stay in power. Many of you in this forum appear to be in school or have just graduated, so let me ask you this question.

On the first day of Math class, the teacher tells everyone that NO one will make an A or B in this class, NO one will make an F or D in this class, but rather that everyone is going to make a C in the class to so it will be "fair" to everyone.

The students that make A's & B's, will have a portion of thier grades taken away so that the F and D students can have thier grades moved up to C's.

After the first week, how many students in the class will be doing homework?

This may be over-simplified, but the reality is that America was not built on a socialist mentality, and so this "entitlement" attitude is ruining our country, and the Goverment is feeding on this sense of "entitlement" from the F and D students in order to get them to vote in mass, whereby the government stays in power and those people end up being slaves to the government, while the A & B students will eventually move to a different school (country/move thier money offshore) and finally this wonderful "fair" school will collapse because the model does not work.

I do not pretend to have all the answers, but entitlement reform and restoring personal accountability are the first steps to put the country back on the right path.

Just my 2 cents.

[serialk11r]

I agree with Zgrinch. I think a huge percentage of people in this country are subsidized in some way or another, we're not even talking government employees. People are so used to being able to lobby the government into giving them money, it's no wonder there's budget problems, with a sell-out government. Taxing the rich more is only "a drop in the bucket". The debt and liabilities of the government far exceed the wealth of the rich.

The corruption on Wall Street cost the government less money than farming subsidies or corruption in education, or numerous other things. Supposedly regulators aren't supposed to be given gifts by lobbyists, but it's clear that's not actually what's happening. People say many were suspicious of Madoff long before he was caught, so why wasn't he caught earlier?

Sorry if this comes off as conspiracist (word?) crap, it's not meant to be.

[nrclptcnsmniak]

yeah ZGrich I agree. its kind of what I said where a lot of us feel were entitled or owed things without putting in our work. It seems like older generations worked a hell of a lot harder than we do (young generation)

Serialk11r I agree im not one for conspiracy either but Ben Bernanke is not a favorite of mine. I really think that government has grown too big. I wish we could start over but that would be catostrophic. Its just the government has its hands in every aspect of our lives. If the government werent dipping its hands in education tuition wouldnt be so expensive, same goes with healthcare. I mean honestly our economy is crap because of these things. The housing market balloon grew too big too fast with housing prices going up and interest rates staying low. Banks were lending out money they didnt have to everybody because the real estate market was kabooming and you were getting a loan even if you really didnt qualify. The government kept printing money to save their arses and printing money out of thin air lowers the value of our dollar. And citizens and the governement were basically living off of loans for the past 3 decades. What we pay in taxes wasnt enough for the government because they still spent more than what they collected and thats when the printing of money came in handy. Its all credit, its all debt, its all horrible. Its all money that doesnt exist. China basically owns us. I am new to all of this I am sure there are terms for all of this but this is what I know so far. 3 months of reading non stop. I also read that the 2 trillion dollars that the banks are sitting on is money that was printed by the Ben Bernanke (The Fed) and that 2 trillion printed is NOT divided into loans. Bill Clinton also stated that if they did use that money and loan it out to people our recession would be over in 15 seconds :/

[Farred]

hippies /thread

[Longhorn248]

Originally Posted by Farred

hippies /thread

Unfortunately there's a lot more to it than that. There are problems with every aspect of the government right now and there isn't a simple solution to any of them. The out of control spending is driving the debt to unimaginable levels and there isn't a single person in congress that seems truly serious about trying to fix it. The "spending cuts" that get proposed are utter bullshit, they are simple saying they won't INCREASE spending as much as they were planning to and then call that "savings". On top of that all their calculations are based on a ten year projection. A one trillion dollar savings over ten years is peanuts when you're planning to spend 1.5 trillion more than you bring in every year. Google baseline budgeting, it will make your head spin.

The tax code is a joke as well, there are so many loop holes and exceptions and deductions that it's no wonder corporations spend millions on accountants to lower their tax burden. I am completely against all the "fair share", tax the rich rhetoric, but at the same time there is no reason GE should pay zero income tax last year. Loopholes and exceptions need to be fixed long before anyone thinks of raising taxes.

College prices are out of control and the idea that everyone has to go to college is flawed as well. Some people should not be acquiring $50k plus in loans for an education in English, advertising, etc when they would be better suited at a local college or trade school. If the jobs aren't there, or the profession you're interested in is a dying breed, you should take that into consideration before burying yourself in debt. On top of all that kids need to be better educated on the loan process as a whole. Loans are too easy to get and they have too many protections for the lender. No bank in their right mind would loan $50k+ to an eighteen year old with no collateral or job, yet the gov hands out millions. Then if you get into the position that you miss a few payments the rates skyrocket and student loans are the only debt that can't be erased by bankruptcy.

There are legit problems out there that the occupiers could try to focus on that the country would get behind, but the way they're organized (or disorganized) right now isn't going to get that done.

[Zak444]

I don't think an overthrow of the government would be easy today. There is much more technology today than there was during the first American revolution. Not too mention the United Nations, so it would have to be a worldwide movement. The government would probably rather kill us all than relinquish their power (e.g. martial law). The only way it might be possible is if the military revolted as well (which i think would be very unlikely). Ultimately the government has more power now than they ever had before in history.

[Marrk]

Some here make a distinction between "government" and "corporation." As in the statement, "The problem is not Wall Street, it's the government." The Occupy Movement would probably respond to this by saying that the problem is that the government is now only serving the interests of corporations, that you cannot get into elected office without corporate donations and backing, and that, in short, the government equals the corporations. You will note that many people in the U.S. believe that what we need in the White House is a business man, someone who knows business, like Herman Cain. Mitt Romney and Michele Bachmann boast of having run businesses, as well. Does this make sense? Does an M.B.A. prepare anyone to be a statesman? Do we want someone who has spent his or her life as a partisan of business to look after our interests? Deregulation in the name of profit? Doing away with the EPA in the name of profit? Destroying the land, the water, the planet in the name of profit? Furthermore, it was the deregulation of banking (by both the Democrats and the Republicans) that led to crisis in mortgage-backed securities, etc.

Some have also gone down the road of "If these people had a job . . ." or "These people should stop whining and get a job . . . ." Indeed, if jobs — decent jobs, good jobs, any jobs — could be had, there would likely be no protest of this kind. Wealth inequality, the decimation of the middle class, and the concentration of capital and access to capital are parts of the problem.

There has also been some pseudo-demagogery about "socialism," a word that is used incorrectly and used for the purpose of inflaming emotions. There is no socialism in the U.S. If there were, you would know it. Having a conscience and recognizing our responsibility to help other human beings is not socialism. That is not to say that every "entitlement program" (another inflammatory term) is perfect.


Just thinkin' out loud here. :happy0180:

[Marrk]

Originally Posted by Zak444

I don't think an overthrow of the government would be easy today. There is much more technology today than there was during the first American revolution. Not too mention the United Nations, so it would have to be a worldwide movement. The government would probably rather kill us all than relinquish their power (e.g. martial law). The only way it might be possible is if the military revolted as well (which i think would be very unlikely). Ultimately the government has more power now than they ever had before in history.

Two words: Libya and Egypt. You could add Tunisia as a third word.

And: It was technology (social networks in particular) that made those revolutions possible.

[Zak444]

Those are 3rd world countries in which overthrow was aided by the help of the US. If protest started getting violent (like a revolution here in America), then they would most definitely call in the troops and declare martial law. How would we civilians take out a tank or airplane?

[Marrk]

Originally Posted by Zak444

Those are 3rd world countries in which overthrow was aided by the help of the US. If protest started getting violent (like a revolution here in America), then they would most definitely call in the troops and declare martial law.

I've got news for you: In "third world countries" like Egypt and Libya, it's all about using the military to oppress the people, and the people won, or are winning, so far.

Since we in the U.S. have even less of an inclination to be enslaved by our government and our military (there's something in the Constitution that says that the U.S. military can never be used as a police force, right?), I think there is less of a chance that anything like martial law would prevail for long here.

Note: Occupy and everything else already is an international movement. So is the economic crisis.

[Zak444]

My point about the third world countries was that they are not as POWERFUL. We also HELPED them.

This is much different than in the US. Our civilians wouldn't be armed or helped by Russians? or something.

I think you need to go check the additions and amendments regarding martial law. The government can come take your house and make you move if they want to. They can also send you to work camps in a state of martial law

The protest may be international, but like was said before it is unorganized. Not every one is on the same page. The protesters don't know what they want. This is the problem. Not to mention probably only like 5 percent of people are protesting.

[Marrk]

Originally Posted by Zak444

My point about the third world countries was that they are not as POWERFUL. We also HELPED them.

This is much different than in the US. Our civilians wouldn't be armed or helped by Russians? or something.

I think you need to go check the additions and amendments regarding martial law. The government can come take your house and make you move if they want to. They can also send you to work camps in a state of martial law

The protest may be international, but like was said before it is unorganized. Not every one is on the same page. The protesters don't know what they want. This is the problem. Not to mention probably only like 5 percent of people are protesting.

Please, slow down here.

Immanent domain does not equal "The government can come take your house and make you move if they want to. They can also send you to work camps in a state of martial law." Also, I was referring to the Posse Comitatus Act.


Occupy is by choice "disorganized" and without a fixed agenda. That is one of Occupy's tactics. They want to change the situation and the way we debate the situation.