Tetsuya Tada: Behind-the-scenes story on how Toyota and Subaru created the GT86 / BRZ

[st162celica]

I heard Yamaha got involved with the FA20 as well...

I remember reading it quite a while ago though. Only was mentioned once.

[GT86drifter]

"“So Mr Kobuki came out for us again. ‘I will convince them,’ he said. In the end he undertook to take on the warranty for all problems. What really won everyone over was when we built our first engine."

I read this again so that means Aisin Seiko is taking care of these HP fuel pump and engine issues?

[SUB-FT86]

“What’s more Subaru’s reaction was a bolt from the blue. ‘Not over my dead body,’ was their reaction. The rationale was their previous experience with direct injection and the many problems that had occurred. The chief executive officer of engine development had previously been the head of the introduction of direct injection at Subaru and was very anti the idea.


This is the only part of the read that made me not want the FRS/BRZ. Subaru never trusted D/I with their engines and now I see why the engine reliability of this car is a bit shaky.

[rapidcars]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

“What’s more Subaru’s reaction was a bolt from the blue. ‘Not over my dead body,’ was their reaction. The rationale was their previous experience with direct injection and the many problems that had occurred. The chief executive officer of engine development had previously been the head of the introduction of direct injection at Subaru and was very anti the idea.


This is the only part of the read that made me not want the FRS/BRZ. Subaru never trusted D/I with their engines and now I see why the engine reliability of this car is a bit shaky.

Agreed that is a little nerve racking especially on a 1st year car. That's what the warranty is for though.

[Spaceywilly]

Keep in mind that discussion probably happened 5+ years ago. Subaru had been trying to develop DI technology on their own and had been having trouble with it at that time, but they now have their own DI on the new Forester XT and soon to be next WRX engine. Also with Toyota handing over their already proved D4S system, and arguably more at stake financially, I'm not too worried about it.

[blu_]

There's only been a few engine failures that I know of. When Subaru makes a crappy engine they tend to blow up left and right... see 2008 STi.

As far as who was more influential in making the car, when I look at mine I see a car that is 80% Subaru/20% Toyota mechanically and 80% Toyota/20% Subaru conceptually.

I think when one group of fanbois gets mad about the other group taking credit for the car they overlook that everyone is biased. Even this interview stops at proof of concept, which was probably the most Toyotacentric and challenging part for Tada of the how the car developed. Still a good read though.

[wbradley]

And the end result is we have one in the garage/driveway/parking lot. A tumultuous story that ends happily.

They made a cost effective and heavily modifiable sports car that also looks good. It's a win win with modest budgets and fat budgets alike. The Model T of sportscars. Never saw a sports model that fits so many demographics (for a niche model).
Truly winning, and not the Charlie Sheen way.

I wonder how much they'd have to pay/dope him up to crash an FR-S in Beverly Hills for a bit of advertising?

[Dezoris]

I dont understand with all the resources Toyota has why they would go through the trouble of having to co design and have another company manufacture a car that was completely their own concept and design. Toyota has always been an engine manufacturer, they have some of the most advanced composites divisions in the world. They had the largest budget in F1 history etc. Etc.

Why put such an important project to them in the hands of another company that never really saw eye to eye?

[Spaceywilly]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

I dont understand with all the resources Toyota has why they would go through the trouble of having to co design and have another company manufacture a car that was completely their own concept and design. Toyota has always been an engine manufacturer, they have some of the most advanced composites divisions in the world. They had the largest budget in F1 history etc. Etc.

Why put such an important project to them in the hands of another company that never really saw eye to eye?

I think 2 reasons

1) it doesn't make financial sense to make a niche sporty coupe. Just look at the s2000. It was developed using F1 tech just like you suggest and was never a huge seller. I don't think Toyota with their lineup of toasters would've gone out and made this on their own. By teaming up with Subaru it is easier to justify the cost.

2) if you read the article, Tada actually came up with the idea of approaching Subaru because he wanted the low hood line and center of gravity of the boxer engine. He wasn't sure how to do it with Toyota's current tech, and when he saw that they had just entered a corporate partnership with Subaru, it just made sense.

It would need to be front engined and rear wheel drive, but it would also have to be ‘cool’ and by that I mean low at the front. Yet all our Toyota engines are quite high and that would mean the car would have to have a high front end to pass pedestrian safety legislation, which wouldn’t be good for the aerodynamics, the looks or the ‘cool’.

“It quickly became clear that we would need a flat-four cylinder or a rotary engine for such a ‘cool’ sports car. And by coincidence, Toyota and Subaru had just announced a collaboration deal. And although it wasn’t in the area of building a joint sports car, they did have a flat-four engine. In fact the deal was that Toyota was buying some Subaru shares back off General Motors and there was no financial benefit until we came along and suggested we talk to Subaru about their engine.

[bdub85]

Originally Posted by blu_

There's only been a few engine failures that I know of. When Subaru makes a crappy engine they tend to blow up left and right... see 2008 STi.

As far as who was more influential in making the car, when I look at mine I see a car that is 80% Subaru/20% Toyota mechanically and 80% Toyota/20% Subaru conceptually.

I think when one group of fanbois gets mad about the other group taking credit for the car they overlook that everyone is biased. Even this interview stops at proof of concept, which was probably the most Toyotacentric and challenging part for Tada of the how the car developed. Still a good read though.

The boxer engines are great. The problem was in the 07+ MY Subarus with the EJ25 engine when they changed the pistons, and they had a tendency to blow ring lands with over 400whp. My 07 STI blew on the dyno when it was being tuned on C16. I had a 06 WRX with the EJ25 pushing 400whp at 27psi with methanol injection and a 20g turbo. It ran great and when I sold it at 30k miles, the compression was fine for all cylinders.

[blu_]

It's debatable about the pistons. Personally I blew 2 motors on my 07 sti both were failed rod bearings. I was stage one with a good Tim Bally Cobb tune so I don't know what the deal was. But the 08s were failing so fast for a while it was pretty amazing.

[Dezoris]

Originally Posted by Spaceywilly

I think 2 reasons

1) it doesn't make financial sense to make a niche sporty coupe. Just look at the s2000. It was developed using F1 tech just like you suggest and was never a huge seller. I don't think Toyota with their lineup of toasters would've gone out and made this on their own. By teaming up with Subaru it is easier to justify the cost.

2) if you read the article, Tada actually came up with the idea of approaching Subaru because he wanted the low hood line and center of gravity of the boxer engine. He wasn't sure how to do it with Toyota's current tech, and when he saw that they had just entered a corporate partnership with Subaru, it just made sense.

That does not add up as they are going to use this platform for, a convertible and possibly the Supra/xxx. The S2000 was a huge success for Honda in the first 3 years, they moved over 40,000 units and was a reason why they ran production for 8 years. They also already had the Insight and NSX made in the same factory so it was easy for them to slot in another model, as there were many shared parts.

I do get your point on the engine development, etc. But long term seems very hard to get things done, making engineering changes require twice the work, implementing manufacturing improvements can't be as simple because it has to filter through more red tape. Support in general seems to be more problematic. It really is "Toyota's" car.

[Rabble]

Because designing and developing a whole new engine is expensive as fuck. It's much cheaper to just license existing tech from someone else, especially when that someone is in a partnership with you.

[Streetice]

THis was a very good read tanks for poasting it.