Spinoff: FWD, not bad, just different.

[CSG Mike]

A lot of people don't understand that driving enjoyment factor... because it's not something that can be quantified into a number and published in a test. It's simply subjective.

I'll take a lot of crap for it, but even knowing that the FRS/BRZ is a superior performance platform to my S2k, I'd still take my S2k over a FRS/BRZ. It's just simply more satisfying to drive.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Dave, your thoughts?

I forgot about this thread.. going to work on the BRZ now so I'll revisit later

[SubieNate]

CSG Mike hits on something here.

RWD cars have this amazing thrust on corner exit that's addicting. The rear tires literally pushing you around the corner and swinging the front end tighter as you add power. It's addicting.

I have enjoyed driving some FWD cars. The Mini Cooper S comes to mind. Some fwd cars are very fun just because they're very small with short wheelbases, and that makes them rotate nicely. But none that I've driven get that power on "lock in" when exiting a turn that makes a well setup RWD car so addicting to drive.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Dave, your thoughts?

I agree with everything you wrote. Our chumpcar is half JDM setup (wider front tires), but thanks to cut OEM springs (off some integra....) the rear rates are a little higher now than the fronts. The small rear sway bar still kills us but between the rates and the tires we've gotten it pretty neutral without the issues the pure JDM setups have. We also don't run the toe settings the JDM guys do (IIRC they ran a lot more toe out but my memory may be failing me).

Yeah long wheel base makes for a more relaxing drive

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

A lot of people don't understand that driving enjoyment factor... because it's not something that can be quantified into a number and published in a test. It's simply subjective.

I'll take a lot of crap for it, but even knowing that the FRS/BRZ is a superior performance platform to my S2k, I'd still take my S2k over a FRS/BRZ. It's just simply more satisfying to drive.

I don't think we are missing that at all. We are pointing out that some FWD cars are an absolute blast to drive and provide a ton of driving enjoyment.

I strongly agree with you and it's my normal arguement when high HP car people ask me why I drive the cars I drive.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by SubieNate

CSG Mike hits on something here.

RWD cars have this amazing thrust on corner exit that's addicting. The rear tires literally pushing you around the corner and swinging the front end tighter as you add power. It's addicting.

I have enjoyed driving some FWD cars. The Mini Cooper S comes to mind. Some fwd cars are very fun just because they're very small with short wheelbases, and that makes them rotate nicely. But none that I've driven get that power on "lock in" when exiting a turn that makes a well setup RWD car so addicting to drive.

RWD cars can easily push when applying power too. That's all setup related. None of my FWD cars understeer or push on corner exit. An LSD is more critical in a FWD car that sees track use though.

[CSG Mike]

Don't get me wrong, I've driven fun FWD cars. I'm not saying FWD can't be fun.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

RWD cars can easily push when applying power too.

Fwd or rwd or awd, any car's natural tendency is to understeer under acceleration as the fronts are unloaded.

That's all setup related.

Of course you can balance by biasing roll stiffness to the rear. But setup doesn't sweep fwd disadvantages under the rug. Accelerating on corner exit, the front wheels are scrabbling for drive grip at the same time as they're scrabbling for cornering grip at the *heavy* end of the car, all while they are unloaded. Whereas an rwd car's front tires only need to provide cornering grip, and not as much of that vs. fwd because there isn't as much mass up front, with the loaded-up rears providing drive grip and their share of cornering grip.

None of my FWD cars understeer or push on corner exit.

Agree that understeer isn't an inherently *necessary* fwd trait. Lack of ability to powerslide is, though!

An LSD is more critical in a FWD car that sees track use though.

That am true! Of course this further mucks with steering feel and precision...


I do agree that fwd can be fun and effective at the track. I had a couple of seasons of epic battles between my 240Z and a similar weight, higher-hp Dodge Shelby Omni. I drove it once, and it was weird, to me... Still, that car made a pretty awesome giant-slaying street/track car

Going back a number of years, but this was our finest hour: http://www.comscc.org/events/results...?id=2002-09-22
Other than a Formula Continental, the three fastest cars at this COMSCC time trial were in my class, SPB. All ~10 lb/hp +/-, we have FR (my 240Z), RR (80s 911), and FF (Shelby Omni GLH-S), all within a tenth. All street/track cars, decently set up and competently driven. So I do appreciate that fwd can be made into capable track cars

[Draco-REX]

FWD can function pretty well in some situations.

However, having driven RWD, FWD, and AWD cars, I can say that I truly do not enjoy FWD cars as much as the others. It's not because I think it is inferior, but because I don't care for the driving dynamics.

[rice_classic]

BUMP and BACK FROM THE DEAD.

Has anyone ever said to you.. "If FWD was any good than why don't we see it utilized in Lemans or F1?!"

I bring you the FWD LMP1 car:
http://blackflag.jalopnik.com/the-ni...+matthardigree




Edit: Before anyone starts.. Yes I know, it's only FWD-ish.. but stiiiillllllll. :rollseyes:

[themadscientist]

I'm not sure where this idea that all things being equal oversteer is worse than understeer. Understeer is terrifying! I would always prefer the rear kicking out over plowing into a guardrail head first. Yes, understeer can be dealt with, but I can't fathom how someone could think understeer is easier to correct than oversteer. Maybe because I rode bikes a bunch the reflex to begin to countersteer was keener, but I've never been scared by oversteer.

[themadscientist]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

BUMP and BACK FROM THE DEAD.

Has anyone ever said to you.. "If FWD was any good than why don't we see it utilized in Lemans or F1?!"

I bring you the FWD LMP1 car:
http://blackflag.jalopnik.com/the-ni...+matthardigree




Edit: Before anyone starts.. Yes I know, it's only FWD-ish.. but stiiiillllllll. :rollseyes:

It's like Nissan is trying to out goofy themselves. Challenge met.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Edit: Before anyone starts.. Yes I know, it's only FWD-ish.. but stiiiillllllll. :rollseyes:

Haha not to go there, but wouldn't most people just call this front-biased AWD?

Horsepower from the ERS can go to the front or the rear wheels, depending on where the car needs the additional power. Marshall Pruett of RACER explains:

Picture the loooooong driveshaft extending from the front of the car to the back of the car, terminating at the rear axle line. It connects to a differential housing that scales upward – high enough for driveshafts to reach across and over the through-flow aero tunnels. Those driveshafts connect to individual gearboxes that also sit in tall housings. With the high differential housing connected to the high outrigger gearboxes via driveshafts, the rear wheels are turned by short driveshafts from the base of the gearboxes.


If the meaty front tires are already overwhelmed with the power produced by the internal combustion engine and the ERS combined, the excess power will be directed to the rears.

I do like how Nissan is trying to think out of the box. Similar to their delta-wing, I'd like to see how this car does since it flies in the face of conventional wisdom.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

BUMP and BACK FROM THE DEAD.

Has anyone ever said to you.. "If FWD was any good than why don't we see it utilized in Lemans or F1?!"

I bring you the FWD LMP1 car:
http://blackflag.jalopnik.com/the-ni...+matthardigree


Edit: Before anyone starts.. Yes I know, it's only FWD-ish.. but stiiiillllllll. :rollseyes:

haha it sounds like a FWD based AWD platform. Interesting choice at that level, even as a pro-FWD guy to a point I wouldn't have made this choice.

Originally Posted by themadscientist

I'm not sure where this idea that all things being equal oversteer is worse than understeer. Understeer is terrifying! I would always prefer the rear kicking out over plowing into a guardrail head first. Yes, understeer can be dealt with, but I can't fathom how someone could think understeer is easier to correct than oversteer. Maybe because I rode bikes a bunch the reflex to begin to countersteer was keener, but I've never been scared by oversteer.

In the hands of a novice both are dangerous. People view understeering as safer in your average car because they are setup to understeer first and removing throttle and/or steering will correct it vs proper throttle application and counter steer. People have a tendency to lift when traction is lost which works better in that situation vs a car that has already lost rear traction and now has it's weight shifted forward.

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Haha not to go there, but wouldn't most people just call this front-biased AWD?

I do like how Nissan is trying to think out of the box. Similar to their delta-wing, I'd like to see how this car does since it flies in the face of conventional wisdom.

It's sounds like only the front wheels are powered by the gas engine, the electric powers the front or rear, so maybe FWD with AWD Hybrid? It's a weird setup for sure.