Borla R&D: Comparison UEL v EL Header 2013 Scion FR-S/Subaru BRZ

[seven]

Originally Posted by mangostick

All I can tell you is that better gains WILL be had with a proper EL or close to EL header vs the traditional UEL in a naturally aspirated platform.

Again, where's your source to back you up for this motor, any dynos?
I'd like to see the difference, I really would.

Originally Posted by mangostick

Once you bolt a turbo or even a supercharger on everything changes. Especially a turbo since it hinders exhaust flow enough that even a terrible header design will make power gains over factory.

We're not (ok, I wasn't) discussing a turbo or s/c here.

[mangostick]

Originally Posted by seven

Again, where's your source to back you up for this motor, any dynos?
I'd like to see the difference, I really would

This motor is not different than any other gasoline engine. Seriously, its not.

We're not (ok, I wasn't) discussing a turbo or s/c here.

You brought up the EJ and that its soo completely different from the FA. I beg to differ. Sure there are differences in the cam drive, direct injection changes in the head and bore/stroke changes but the intake/exhaust port design isn't all that different.

I brought up FI because you can run a terrible header when you can adjust exhaust cam timing to blow some of the charge out of the exhaust .. negating the need for proper scavenging. UEL headers pair the exhaust pulse (what you hear as the rumble) .. on a n/a engine this hampers scavenging and increases backpressure. Sure that's ok for torque on the low but after the midrange peters out the uel will hurt the top end.

granted, where this happens greatly depends on HOW unequal the pipes are and what resonant frequency's are generated at what rpm. Again, back to physics and Harmonics. UEL headers done right are extremely complicated and yield narrower power bands. So you either get the bottom or you get the top or you get a nasty peak in the middle sacrificing top and bottom. EL's are easier to tune because there are fewer variables and historically widen the power band making more area under the curve across the useable range vs peaking it out in one area or another.

I could get into cam phasing and other aspects that change exhaust pulse and VE too but again just adds to the unnecessary complication of the discussion. Any header is better than no header but UEL has greater limitations than EL just by the nature of the design. That is all.

edit;

You also have to ask yourself.. is a aftermarket company really going to put a few thousands of hours into a design that they may not make that money in R+D back on? .. or are they going to throw a compromise at the masses that kinda makes an improvement and will make them a nice tidy profit?

Checked out the link in your sig... you guys build some sick toys! Seriously I'm not the greatest with text and I'm not trying to come off like a know it all ass hole (though I think I might have already.. whoops) .. just that so many folks love that boxer rumble without understanding its limitations.

[seven]

Originally Posted by mangostick

This motor is not different than any other gasoline engine. Seriously, its not.
You brought up the EJ and that its soo completely different from the FA. I beg to differ. Sure there are differences in the cam drive, direct injection changes in the head and bore/stroke changes but the intake/exhaust port design isn't all that different.

I brought up FI because you can run a terrible header when you can adjust exhaust cam timing to blow some of the charge out of the exhaust .. negating the need for proper scavenging. UEL headers pair the exhaust pulse (what you hear as the rumble) .. on a n/a engine this hampers scavenging and increases backpressure. Sure that's ok for torque on the low but after the midrange peters out the uel will hurt the top end.

granted, where this happens greatly depends on HOW unequal the pipes are and what resonant frequency's are generated at what rpm. Again, back to physics and Harmonics. UEL headers done right are extremely complicated and yield narrower power bands. So you either get the bottom or you get the top or you get a nasty peak in the middle sacrificing top and bottom. EL's are easier to tune because there are fewer variables and historically widen the power band making more area under the curve across the useable range vs peaking it out in one area or another.

I could get into cam phasing and other aspects that change exhaust pulse and VE too but again just adds to the unnecessary complication of the discussion. Any header is better than no header but UEL has greater limitations than EL just by the nature of the design. That is all.

edit;

You also have to ask yourself.. is a aftermarket company really going to put a few thousands of hours into a design that they may not make that money in R+D back on? .. or are they going to throw a compromise at the masses that kinda makes an improvement and will make them a nice tidy profit?

Checked out the link in your sig... you guys build some sick toys! Seriously I'm not the greatest with text and I'm not trying to come off like a know it all ass hole (though I think I might have already.. whoops) .. just that so many folks love that boxer rumble without understanding its limitations.

Stop typing so much, it makes it hard to respond to all of it. :p

In short my point is this. The motor being SO efficient as is (because it's direct injected, and to be fair - most of the other flat motors you're referencing are not - which they are all gasoline, but not all direct injected, that does change things a good bit)... I don't think an EL with a tune will make much more than 1-3whp up top vs a UEL with a tune. No one has even done a dyno test yet (partially because this is the first mass-produced UEL). There's no doubt the low end and mid-range torque will be in the UEL's favor as that's its strong point.

However 1-3whp is going to be negligible given the difference in dynos, atmospheric conditions, etc. My second point (maybe it wasn't clear) is that I don't consider the UEL better, but both likely to be about the same.
1-3whp in an any setup is going to be bragging rights only (and even then only if you break the magic n/a 200whp barrier on this car). In short, the car doesn't move enough air for it to matter, and EL won't be a god-send solution - which is what it seemed like to me you were making it sound like (after you explained you were comparing EL to UEL as opposed to UEL/EL vs stock).

To address other points, I wasn't talking turbo because as you said, stuff more air or more timing in it and even a log manifold will make power.

Cam phasing on this car is well, interesting, I'm curious to see how a tuned UEL would help with that torque dip. Obviously it won't eliminate it, but it might make it a *litte* less noticable - Curious if there's enough air at that point to back it up and make some torque, there might not be.

As far as the website... that's the half of it. LOL. The new project is my buddy bought a base model Silverado 2500 6.0... quote from him...

Originally Posted by Matt

this is my next project, picked it up monday night.

it has the iron 6.0, 4l80e, and 14bolt rear, crank windows, AC, hydroboost brakes, disk brakes all around, what a great truck, 211,811 miles!

im going to be doing some transmission modding and then throwing on alum heads, and springs i have laying around, then i have twin 61mm GT35s in the mail, a small methanol kit, intercooled, whats nice is the stock 411pcm supports a 3 bar OS update so the ECU can read boost and whatnot, very tuner friendly.

i bought a Circle D triple billet stall for this thing also. going to be lots of fun, i think this might eventually get the 370 built motor and i might goto twin 76s in the long run if this works out!

Should be fun.

[VSGTS14]

an EL header properly tuned and in the correct application will yield more HP than an UEL on a boxer motor. an UEL over stock will provide excellent torque gains and hp. tested and proven on a turbo boxer motor. same applies to the FA20. UEL is a design flaw, no matter how you look at it. it provides gains, but a well built EL will always prevail, on this application though, i don't see much.

throw a turbo on the car and you'll see the EL pass the UEL.

[BRAWL]

Is 2 or 3 hp worth the difference in sound? I suppose that is the compromise you make with the choice. I have chosen to go with the UEL header as I love the sound at idle and low revs, but oddly think that the EL header sounds better on high revs/fly by. Otherwise, the EL header sounds like a mechanical wasp farting

[industrial]

Originally Posted by VSGTS14

an EL header properly tuned and in the correct application will yield more HP than an UEL on a boxer motor. an UEL over stock will provide excellent torque gains and hp. tested and proven on a turbo boxer motor. same applies to the FA20. UEL is a design flaw, no matter how you look at it. it provides gains, but a well built EL will always prevail, on this application though, i don't see much.

throw a turbo on the car and you'll see the EL pass the UEL.

We're talking about maybe 1-2% differences here at most. If EL headers were the godsend some of you guys pretend it is, people would be lined up around the block to buy them. I think headers on this car probably won't make a lick of difference aside from removing the cat which is where you might make more power.

I bought these headers for the sound and to remove a cat that will probably fail on most tuned cars that are running leaner maps.

[VSGTS14]

Originally Posted by industrial

We're talking about maybe 1-2% differences here at most. If EL headers were the godsend some of you guys pretend it is, people would be lined up around the block to buy them. I think headers on this car probably won't make a lick of difference aside from removing the cat which is where you might make more power.

I bought these headers for the sound and to remove a cat that will probably fail on most tuned cars that are running leaner maps.

exactly. on these cars, very small difference. on a boosted application, an EL can easily add 20 hp though.

but, as stated, these cars are not FI and are NA. so either header will be fine.

[DarkCard]

Whats with the pissing match in here? No one cares who has what preference its supposed to be a r&d thread geez.

[Simmons]

Once I get my UEL Borla header, my tuner Moto-East will tune for it to see what we get out of it.


Simmons

[Skurj]

Did the EL get scrapped?

Sounds so much nicer than the UEL..

[AlvinT@Borla]

Originally Posted by Skurj

Did the EL get scrapped?
Sounds so much nicer than the UEL..

Our EL Header (PN-17285) will post on our website very soon. Different sound with higher frequencies than our UEL Header.
Our catless Mid-Pipe (2-piece pipe replacing over-pipe + secondary cat-pipe) will also post soon.
Thanks.

[DanoFA20]

Originally Posted by showbe

honestly it sounds like crap.

really? (pimp slap)

[Huehuecoyotl]

Originally Posted by AlvinT@Borla

Our EL Header (PN-17285) will post on our website very soon. Different sound with higher frequencies than our UEL Header.
Our catless Mid-Pipe (2-piece pipe replacing over-pipe + secondary cat-pipe) will also post soon.
Thanks.

has this been dyno'd? can we see a uel vs el video and graph? thank you

[AlvinT@Borla]

Check out this video on YouTube:<br/><br/>[ame]http://youtu.be/S3WrXQrBA44[/ame]