Spinoff: FWD, not bad, just different.

[rice_classic]

:UPDATE:

DO NOT read whole thread again! As of 2/2/2015 the thread was bumped due to the new Nissan LMP1 car being FWD! WTF right?! I KNOW!

:END UPDATE:



I didn't want to crap up the GM thread so I respectfully started something new.

Let's start of with some references of successful FWD race cars:

FWD Chevy Cruze = 2010/2011/2012 WTCC champion
FWD Honda Civic = 2011/2012 BTCC champion

A RWD car hasn't won the WTCC since 2008 or the BTCC since 2000.








Now, once you get into BIG HP the FWD is no longer a reasonable platform. For instance: The Pirelli Wold Challenge (formerly Speed World Challenge) GT Cars have been dominated by RWD champions like the 911 GT3's or the Caddy CTS-V but Peter Cunningham did win a championship in 2010 in a FWD TSX in GTS:




In the Pirelli World Challenge TC class (Touring Car), a RWD car has only won the championship twice in the last 16 years (BMW 325i) and part of that is due to the fact that few RWD cars are produced nowadays and fewer yet that don't make big HP or have big engines. So a lower HP class like Touring Car will naturally have more FWD entries due to prevailing market dynamics.... but I digress.


To reiterate, above roughly 300hp, the capabilities of FWD rapidly diminishes which is why big HP cars are RWD or AWD. That's fair and I think most folks get this. Not to make another spinoff argument about RWD vs AWD I will say that the in the FIA GT series the Nissan GTR team didn't convert the GTR to RWD because it's better, they did it because of a significant weight savings in which the advantage more than offset the loss of AWD.

But setting up a FWD car to be fun, rewarding and fast just takes a different approach and a different understanding of car dynamics which most folks don't understand or aren't willing to. The same applies to drag racing and not just with FWD but with 4 bangers too. I remember in the late 90's the drag racers all picked on imports and FWD until a CRX ran 9's in the 1/4. As far as non drag racing, the prevailing attitude is something like: "It's FWD, it just understeers." Well, my FRS understeers like a fat pig on a racetrack compared to my FWD race car.

I like having a RWD sports car, I loved my S2000 and I love my FRS but the only other 200hp (off-the-showroom-floor) car to provide me with as much enjoyment as the FRS was the FWD Integra Type R, which I felt was a masterpiece of driving enjoyment. In fact, when describing my FRS I pretty much just say it's like a RWD ITR. To me that essentially sums it up.




I'm not trying to convince anyone to love FWD but I do think outright dismissal of it is a bit myopic. A racing acquaintance of mine that races E30's but also races in the Continental series (in a FWD car) was talking to me about the differences of racing a FWD car on the limit vs RWD. He said racing a FWD car is a bit terrifying at the racing limit because of how you have to "commit" to a corner and that he has a new respect for folks that race them well.

Dismissing cars simply on the basis of being FWD is no more silly then dismissing all Corvette's because of pushrods. For goodness sake, look what Corvette has done in ALMS with those pushrods!

The one thing I have absolutely no argument for is Drifting. You will need a RWD car for that.


:puts on flame suit:

[Asterisked Accolade]

So it seems the point you're making here is that FWD should not be underestimated and criticized as much as it is. I can agree with that.

As far as i can tell, the 'FWD criticism' doesn't come from racers or people who are well educated on how to set one up-- the criticism comes from people who don't often hit the road course and think high HP and RWD is the only way to go, which is very narrow-minded, IMO.

FWD cars can be set up to handle very well, but the setup is very different from RWD. For someone like myself who doesn't care about HP numbers or drivetrain animosity, FWD is great. I love my little Celica-- it's loud, it grips and it weighs as much a gallon of milk.

I guess what i'm getting at is that it's intrinsically self-deceptive to rule out a single drivetrain option.

[wheelhaus]

Good post. I had a friend that was racing in the Speed World Challenge, and he was using a turbocharged fully race prepped Dodge Neon. After being gutted and race prepped, it had something silly like 65+% weight distribution over the front wheels. I believe it was just under 300hp. The most impressive thing was it's handling. I was dumbfounded at how well it rotated mid-corner. He said it was all in the suspension setup and tire pressures, and took a lot of time to refine his adjustment methodology because it was quite different than a traditional RWD platform.

Even still, on a fundamental level, FWD is still a step backwards for handling dynamics. The platform was designed for manufacturing simplicity. Of course, being human, we will try to find a way to make it get teh moar fastars, butt heats, and rub fenders in competition. I'ts impressive, nonetheless, to see entire race series of mixed platofrm competition get dominated by FWD cars.

[Asterisked Accolade]

Originally Posted by wheelhaus

Good post. I had a friend that was racing in the Speed World Challenge, and he was using a turbocharged fully race prepped Dodge Neon. After being gutted and race prepped, it had something silly like 65+% weight distribution over the front wheels. I believe it was just under 300hp. The most impressive thing was it's handling. I was dumbfounded at how well it rotated mid-corner. He said it was all in the suspension setup and tire pressures, and took a lot of time to refine his adjustment methodology because it was quite different than a traditional RWD platform.

Even still, on a fundamental level, FWD is still a step backwards for handling dynamics. The platform was designed for manufacturing simplicity. Of course, being human, we will try to find a way to make it get teh moar fastars, butt heats, and rub fenders in competition. I'ts impressive, nonetheless, to see entire race series of mixed platofrm competition get dominated by FWD cars.

Yeah they can be very potent-- typically you need to make the rear loose and try to get as much mechanical grip to the front as possible. When you start getting above 300hp though, things get much harder to manage. But personally, i think more than 300hp is pretty much unnecessary for most cars. Instead of working on getting nearly 400hp, i'd work my way toward getting to 2,000lbs instead.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

In the Pirelli World Challenge TC class (Touring Car), a RWD car has only won the championship twice in the last 16 years (BMW 325i) and part of that is due to the fact that few RWD cars are produced nowadays and fewer yet that don't make big HP or have big engines. So a lower HP class like Touring Car will naturally have more FWD entries due to prevailing market dynamics.... but I digress.

In addition to the market dynamics issue, aren't RWD cars also penalized by weight/ballast in WTCC because of their inherent advantages? And wasn't this the reason standing starts were abolished, since RWD cars had a big advantage here over FWD? Here's an article I found:

http://www.touringcartimes.com/article.php?id=1425

I don't follow WTCC or BTCC closely though, so my information might be dated. I do generally agree with you though that in lightweight, low hp applications, FWD can be very competitive.

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

I'm not trying to convince anyone to love FWD but I do think outright dismissal of it is a bit myopic. A racing acquaintance of mine that races E30's but also races in the Continental series (in a FWD car) was talking to me about the differences of racing a FWD car on the limit vs RWD. He said racing a FWD car is a bit terrifying at the racing limit because of how you have to "commit" to a corner and that he has a new respect for folks that race them well.

Very well said. Every drivetrain has its time and place. FWD cars are fantastic for system efficiency and packaging. We have the Morris/Austin Mini to thank for modern transverse FWD platforms.

There are a handful of highly acclaimed FWD platforms that make respectable drivers cars. The Integra Type R, MINI Cooper, and VW GTI are excellent examples. Those cars are also great for track enthusiasts as they're both effective and satisfying to pilot.

There's enough room in this huge automotive landscape for some FWD love.

[There should be another "love" thread for AWD setups!]

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

FWD Chevy Cruze = 2010/2011/2012 WTCC champion
FWD Honda Civic = 2011/2012 BTCC champion

A RWD car hasn't won the WTCC since 2008 or the BTCC since 2000.

That's more a statement on rules structure than rwd vs. fwd. Give them the same power and the same weight, and rwd wins. They add weight to rwd to level the playing field, because rwd is inherently better!

Taken too far, and of course you can end up where the superior power/weight fwd car is faster.

For whatever reasons, somebody probably wants it that way.

Anyway, even if fwd were just as fast/quick as rwd, it would still suck.

[Dimman]

^ All about weight transfer and tire loading. Physics says RWD > FWD all else being equal.

However application plays a wee bit of a role, too. I'd take a Focus ST over a Ford LTD, any day.

[Asterisked Accolade]

Wow. . .

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by ZDan

That's more a statement on rules structure than rwd vs. fwd. Give them the same power and the same weight, and rwd wins. They add weight to rwd to level the playing field, because rwd is inherently better!

Taken too far, and of course you can end up where the superior power/weight fwd car is faster.

For whatever reasons, somebody probably wants it that way.

Anyway, even if fwd were just as fast/quick as rwd, it would still suck.

I love tracking my ITR. I love tracking my BRZ too. I wouldn't say the ITR sucks, the driving experience is in some ways better than the BRZ. Both are neutral and I can get either to oversteer. The BRZ actually understeers more stock vs stock. I run higher rear pressures in the BRZ and a more agressive alignment to get rotation out of it.

<< must be doing it wrong. :shrug:

Equal power to weight doesn't mean RWD will instantly be faster. Until the very limit FWD is easier to drive, then it takes MORE talent IMO at and just beyond the limit than RWD does. Suspension design and setup plays more of a role than FWD vs RWD given equal power and weight. I'd rather have a double wishbone FWD car for example than a same power/weight live axle rear torsion rod front RWD car

[fuddbutter]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

There are a handful of highly acclaimed FWD platforms that make respectable drivers cars. The Integra Type R, MINI Cooper, and VW GTI are excellent examples. Those cars are also great for track enthusiasts as they're both effective and satisfying to pilot.

The Renault Megane RS and Clio RS are some of the best examples going around now, both are serious track weapons and pounce all over the BRZ/86 on the track!
I still am not convinced i made the right choice getting my BRZ. the Renaults were so appealing..
But i guess you don't have that worry in the states since you don't have them
I just keep looking at them and their giant Brembo's and drool..

[dorifuto]

If a wrong wheel drive car sets a record at Tsukuba I still won't care.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Anyway, even if fwd were just as fast/quick as rwd, it would still suck.

I did all this for you and this how you thank me?

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by Asterisked Accolade

So it seems the point you're making here is that FWD should not be underestimated and criticized as much as it is. I can agree with that.

I don't know if I'm making a point or just airing out some pent up pontifications. However I figured there's a bit of hate toward FWD which is understandable considering the forum I'm on but more so there's a large amount of misconceptions regarding it. So this would be a good place to throw food at each other in the virtual cafeteria.

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

In addition to the market dynamics issue, aren't RWD cars also penalized by weight/ballast in WTCC because of their inherent advantages? And wasn't this the reason standing starts were abolished, since RWD cars had a big advantage here over FWD? Here's an article I found:

Ignore the link. Sometimes the "even-ing of cars" is done with weight other times with tire width and this evening isn't just done to make FWD=RWD but also to make ALL the cars equal regardless of drivetrain. That's a "norm" in just about all motorsports until you get into unlimited classes or formula cars or tube frame cars. I'm watching the 2012 BTCC season right now on my DVR and they do standing starts.

Oh and what's this?! Jason Plato is overtaking another BMW coming out of the corner on a wet track! Why?... because of........








wait for it....
















Physics