Upgraded brake rotors for track?

[ultra]

I'm curious about the relative benefits and drawbacks of running upgraded pads and, say, DBA floating front rotors versus running something like the Essex Sprint kit (OK let's face it - the Essex kit is the bomb).

To put it another way I'm wondering what the weak point is in the stock system (assuming hi temp fluid is already in place).

Sure it's 'heat' ultimately but I'm wondeting if the stock calipers and rotors are weak points, or if the stock calipers would remain a weak point assuming I were to upgrade to the DBA fully floating rotors (which should cool better) combined with the standard pad & fluid upgrade all around.

Has anyone tracked on such a setup?

Do people think that the economics of upgrading pads, lines and front rotors stack up favorably versus the Essex BBK?

The Essex kit is at the top of my 'bonus time' shopping list but I'm interested to know if there might be other cheaper and effective options out there worth considering.

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by ultra

DBA floating front rotors

I don't think DBA make floating discs. 2 piece yes, floating no.

[Dave-ROR]

OEM w DBA5000:
DBA 5000 initial set (pair): ~760
DBA 5000 replacement rotor (pair): ~540
CL RC6 (front axle): $275
Ferodo DS1.11 (front axle): $250
AP C300 (front axle): $258

Initial cost for rotors plus one set of those pads: $1,010-$1,035
Cost of consumables for each rotor set: $540
Cost of consumables for each pad set: $250-$275
Actual consumable cost: Who knows, if we assume similar to OEM wear probably 3x or more the essex kit?

Essex Kit:
Initial cost: $2,100 (including lines which weren't included above)
Replacement Rotor set: $330
CL RC6 (front axle): $201
Ferodo DS1.11 (front axle): $184
AP C300 (front axle): $189

Initial cost: $2,100
Cost of consumables for each rotor set: $330
Cost of consumables for each pad set: $184-$201

Difference in rotor consumables: $210 cheaper for essex per rotor pair replacement
Difference in pad consumables: $66-$71 cheaper for essex per pad replacement.

If we assume we get 3x the life out of the rotor, that's $630 saved, and 2x the life out of the pads, that's another ~135 or so.

So you can see the economics shift overtime to the Essex kit. How long depends on your brake usage at your local tracks, your driving style and how many events you do a year.

[ultra]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

OEM w DBA5000:
DBA 5000 initial set (pair): ~760
DBA 5000 replacement rotor (pair): ~540
CL RC6 (front axle): $275
Ferodo DS1.11 (front axle): $250
AP C300 (front axle): $258

Initial cost for rotors plus one set of those pads: $1,010-$1,035
Cost of consumables for each rotor set: $540
Cost of consumables for each pad set: $250-$275
Actual consumable cost: Who knows, if we assume similar to OEM wear probably 3x or more the essex kit?

Essex Kit:
Initial cost: $2,100 (including lines which weren't included above)
Replacement Rotor set: $330
CL RC6 (front axle): $201
Ferodo DS1.11 (front axle): $184
AP C300 (front axle): $189

Initial cost: $2,100
Cost of consumables for each rotor set: $330
Cost of consumables for each pad set: $184-$201

Difference in rotor consumables: $210 cheaper for essex per rotor pair replacement
Difference in pad consumables: $66-$71 cheaper for essex per pad replacement.

If we assume we get 3x the life out of the rotor, that's $630 saved, and 2x the life out of the pads, that's another ~135 or so.

So you can see the economics shift overtime to the Essex kit. How long depends on your brake usage at your local tracks, your driving style and how many events you do a year.

Couldn't have hoped for a better reply. Thanks for that. It explains the eonomics well.

i'm wondering if I'd notice much of a performance difference on track.

The Dubai Autodrome is murder on brakes and I'm a bit of a brake demon (due to incompetence or agression - who knows) so let's assume heavy brake usage.

Do you folks think pads/fluid/lines plus a high end 2 piece rotor setup would show signs of fade (due to heat issues with the rotor) much more so than a BBK setup?

I've read the threads and am aware that nobody's managed to get any fade on the Essex kit yet. Just curious about this stuff. I know BBK is probably the better option (especially in the long run) but I'm interested in assessing the pros and cons of all the options.

Also, I. probably only track 6-8 times a year nowadays so here's that.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by ultra

Couldn't have hoped for a better reply. Thanks for that. It explains the eonomics well.

i'm wondering if I'd notice much of a performance difference on track.

The Dubai Autodrome is murder on brakes and I'm a bit of a brake demon (due to incompetence or agression - who knows) so let's assume heavy brake usage.

Do you folks think pads/fluid/lines plus a high end 2 piece rotor setup would show signs of fade (due to heat issues with the rotor) much more so than a BBK setup?

I've read the threads and am aware that nobody's managed to get any fade on the Essex kit yet. Just curious about this stuff. I know BBK is probably the better option (especially in the long run) but I'm interested in assessing the pros and cons of all the options.

Also, I. probably only track 6-8 times a year nowadays so here's that.

I forgot you were in Dubai. Those prices are for someone in the US, I have absolutely no idea what they are there BTW so you may want to check on that.

Fade with the DBA stuff.. well I don't feel confident answering that as I've never used them. They should cool better than the OEM rotors but at the end of the day they have basically the same mass so I'd imagine that weight savings are the key improvement there. They'll probably take a little more heat, but probably not a lot more. Brake ducts would probably help you out though and would be the cheapest option if you wanted to try that first.

I'm not sure if anyone (who tracks their cars) is running the DBA 5000 series stuff yet. LDAdrenaline is running DBA 4000s I believe which he cracked (I mean all the way through, not normal expansion cracks) after one event at Sebring.

[Racecomp Engineering]

I'm kind of a proponent of sticking with cheap (but quality) blanks like the Centric/Stoptech premiums OR going with a quality BBK. The price of the 2 piece stock size rotors just isn't worth it as Dave demonstrated.

For this chassis the Essex kit is so good and priced so well that it's just a great choice for any track car.

- Andrew

[ATL BRZ]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

So you can see the economics shift overtime to the Essex kit. How long depends on your brake usage at your local tracks, your driving style and how many events you do a year.

Very helpful numbers, thanks!

[Black Tire]

If you stay with the stock setup, you will likely need to replace the calipers frequently (maybe a rebuild would work). Stock calipers are not really made to handle lots of heat from track use on a frequent basis. The AP calipers in the Essex kit are a better bet; they can be professionally rebuilt by Essex (or a local AP service center) and should last longer with track use before they need it.

If you use a stock disk, I would look at a cryo-treated rotor. I have had better luck with these (Powerslot Cryo - Centric/Stoptech) than with the DBA 4000.

[HAZMAT]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

I forgot you were in Dubai. Those prices are for someone in the US, I have absolutely no idea what they are there BTW so you may want to check on that.

Fade with the DBA stuff.. well I don't feel confident answering that as I've never used them. They should cool better than the OEM rotors but at the end of the day they have basically the same mass so I'd imagine that weight savings are the key improvement there. They'll probably take a little more heat, but probably not a lot more. Brake ducts would probably help you out though and would be the cheapest option if you wanted to try that first.

I'm not sure if anyone (who tracks their cars) is running the DBA 5000 series stuff yet. LDAdrenaline is running DBA 4000s I believe which he cracked (I mean all the way through, not normal expansion cracks) after one event at Sebring.

Me>>>

I run DBA's at all 4 corners on my 2011 EVO MR with Carbotech 12 pads.

The car weighs 1000 lbs more than the one of the twins....

I Solo 1, 1.5 and 2 with this setup....No fade, no issues and lots of hard miles on the DBA rotors using the OEM Brembo Calipers. I go thru pads like crazy but not rotors....

I'm sure on the a 2750 lb car the DBA rotors would be overkill....

I've run all kinds of brake setups on my old E36M3/4 as well. Love the DBA"s.

Worth the initial ante

HTH,
HAZMAT

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by HAZMAT

Me>>>

I run DBA's at all 4 corners on my 2011 EVO MR with Carbotech 12 pads.

The car weighs 1000 lbs more than the one of the twins....

I Solo 1, 1.5 and 2 with this setup....No fade, no issues and lots of hard miles on the DBA rotors using the OEM Brembo Calipers. I go thru pads like crazy but not rotors....

I'm sure on the a 2750 lb car the DBA rotors would be overkill....

I've run all kinds of brake setups on my old E36M3/4 as well. Love the DBA"s.

Worth the initial ante

HTH,
HAZMAT

One would think that WRX rotors would be overkill on this much lighter car also, but that's not the case.

I meant on this car. I run tiny rotors on my race car, doesn't apply to this chassis though.

I have nothing against the DBAs but the fact that they are stock size makes me doubt them *on this car*.

[IMOA]

What is it about the 86 which is making it so hard on brakes? I keep looking at these big brake kits and looking back to the S15 we used to race. This was national level production car racing on slicks and while the car was a touch lighter than an 86 (2785lbs incl driver at the end of the race) it had a lot more power, about an extra 130hp atw, had no opportunity for the odd cool down lap as it was wheel to wheel racing and generated more heat due to running full slicks. We had to run standard brakes so that meant a 280mm ventilated disk up front and a solid 250mm disk in the rear. The rears were difficult so there was a very specific compound we had to run or they would be (literally) in flames after about 10 minutes but we never started fading in races which were around 25 minutes long.

On the street oriented silvias we would typically change to R33 GTS-T brakes (295mm front disk, 2mm wider iirc) for light modded cars and my S14 had R33 GTR brembos front and rear which at the time was considered a big brake package (324mm fronts and the rears were about 86 size). This is still smaller that what is being marketed as street big brake kits for the 86 on a car which was the same weight and 2 1/2 times the power.

I have to say I'm struggling to understand just why such large brakes are needed on an 86 which is fundamentally a light, low powered car.

[Dave-ROR]

IMOA: If you look back on my old posts you'll find me saying that the OEM brakes on this car should be just fine.. hell they were designed for a WRX boat up front and a LGT even bigger boat in the back. Why they are turning out not to be is beyond my comprehension honestly. I didn't expect to need larger brakes, even after having the OEM brakes smoking after 20 minutes on track. Like you, I race a car with OEM brakes that are MUCH smaller (259mm front and 238mm rear) and we do endurance road racing with that, anywhere from 7 to 24 hours at a time without any issues. That car weighs a little less than the BRZ/FRS but makes a tiny bit more power at the wheels.

I absolutely agree that these massive kits are completely beyond what any of these cars will need except for looks. However my experience with these cars on track resulted in my switching to a BBK, although the BBK I selected has barely larger diameter rotors and really just focuses on weight and cooling with increased heat capacity. I also had rotor failure on both sides of this car that I've literally never seen happen before. I still have no idea why the OEM rotors started to delaminate. :shrug:

There are other reasons for a well designed BBK also, weight reduction (10 lbs per corner with the essex sprint kit for example), cheaper pads, longer life for consumables (pads and rotors), pedal feel and modulation of fixed calipers, etc.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by ultra

I'm curious about the relative benefits and drawbacks of running upgraded pads and, say, DBA floating front rotors versus running something like the Essex Sprint kit (OK let's face it - the Essex kit is the bomb).

To put it another way I'm wondering what the weak point is in the stock system (assuming hi temp fluid is already in place).

Sure it's 'heat' ultimately but I'm wondeting if the stock calipers and rotors are weak points, or if the stock calipers would remain a weak point assuming I were to upgrade to the DBA fully floating rotors (which should cool better) combined with the standard pad & fluid upgrade all around.

Has anyone tracked on such a setup?

Do people think that the economics of upgrading pads, lines and front rotors stack up favorably versus the Essex BBK?

The Essex kit is at the top of my 'bonus time' shopping list but I'm interested to know if there might be other cheaper and effective options out there worth considering.

why is it that people like you always assume some sort of one-dimensional "track" that consumes your car into a vortex of irreparable oblivion.

do you not realize that your question is vague, that you've elicited similarly vague and pseudo-catalog responses?

What is track to you? Is track 5 laps on an oval? 1 lap of Nurburgring? 60 laps of Suzuka?

Tell us what track, how many laps you expect to be out, how many sessions you expect to be out, how aggressive you plan on being, and most importantly how do you feel the car responds in it's current setup, what is it that you have a problem is that you want fixed?

[IMOA]

The sprint kit you're using makes complete sense to me, reasonably sized, fundamentally better quality and an enormous reduction in weight. The price also makes sense, especially as the dba disks are made about 15 miles from here but are 20% cheaper buying them from a shop 10,000 miles away. That said, I guess I'm a little surprised that we need an upgrade but if you've suffered a failure I certainly accept that this is the case (and fwiw, I've seen a number of disk failures on wrx's so I guess that shouldn't come as a surprise).

It probably is the 'street' kits that cause me the most confusion, massive disks, 6 pot calipers and designed to be used in conjunction with street tyres. Madness.