FRS/BRZ vs Honda CBR 600rr

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by 86fanatic

A lot of people here are telling you sport bikes are uncomfortable,

Most sport bikes are. Ideal ergos for tracking are NOT ideal for tooling around on the street, that's just a basic fact.

too fast for the road,

I've never argued that point...

only meant for the track,

For me, this is only a drawback in the ergos department. Trackworthy engine and suspension = fine w/ me. I just don't think it's a good idea for a first-timer to buy a bike with uncompromised race ergos. They aren't likely to enjoy riding it as much.

but I ask you, how is a sport bike different then a FRS? A FRS isn't the most comfortable car you can buy,

But the basic seating position is comfortable, for any type of driving.

I know, there are any number of die-hards who will say they don't have a problem with repli-racer ergos, but IMO, MOST people will.

I've ridden plenty of sportbikes on the street, and although I'm a HUGE fan of their capabilities, for the vast majority of street riding they're just a pain. You just can't redistribute your weight between hands/feet/backside as easily as you can on a bike like my SV650

At the TRACK, though, SV650 ergos don't work as well...

The track vs. street ergos problem that bikes have doesn't really have an analog in the car world. What's comfortable for me in a car as far as basic seating position, seatback angle, steering wheel and pedal locations works equally well on the street or at the track.

I guess there would be more of an analog there if they sold F1 cars as street cars.

I can tell you modern 600 Supersport machines are simply amazing machines. Don't let anyone turn you away from them,

They are amazing machines. They are HUGELY compromised on the street, though...
My position is: Don't let anyone convince you to get an amazing track-dedicated machine with extreme ergos to use as a real-world motorcycle, you might not enjoy it when you're riding at less than 7-8/10ths (i.e., the VAST majority of the time on the street).

they actually have a very street friendly powerband, certainly no less so then any high revving low torque sport cars, and the amount of technology on them and how light and flick-able

Regarding "flickability", a sportbike with a wider/higher handlebar is a LOT more responsive than a sportbike with low, very narrow bars. On the street, a Street Triple (more upright naked bike) feels more responsive than a 675 Daytona (same bike in race-replica form). You don't need to apply as much countersteering force to initiate a turn, as you have a ton more leverage.

MOST people are going to enjoy the Street Triple more on the street.
Of course the Daytona would be the one to take to the track.

they are is something if you have any interest in motorcycles at all you have to experience at least once.

I've experienced race-replica bikes enough over the years to know that I'll never own one as a *street* bike. The ergos which are an advantage at the track just aren't worth it for street riding.

People like to point out how much more dangerous it is to ride a motorcycle, and it is, but it is also dangerous to drive a car. There are about 4k motorcycle deaths a year compared to about 32k car fatalities a year.

Are you kidding? You're going to compare total deaths vs. total deaths? When more people travel VASTLY more miles in cars?

Riding a motorcycle is inherently MUCH more dangerous than driving a car. This is a FACT. Fatality rate per vehicle miles traveled is many many times greater for motorcycles. Like, 35x greater. Chance of injury is "only" 8x greater.
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/810990.PDF

ANYONE considering motorcycling should be aware of the very real risks involved.

There are about the same number of motorcycle deaths as people who get run over walking across the street (pedestrian deaths).

Which does NOT mean that it's safer to ride a motorcycle than it is to cross the street! Comparing raw numbers indicates NOTHING about actual risk.

I'm not saying driving a car is more dangerous, but I am saying when your time is up your time is up, and you can either live in fear of it and not experience life, or take a chance and have a lot of fun while doing it.

Utter b.s. Your time is much more likely to be up sooner if you regularly engage in risky activities. I've never tried to talk anyone out of motorcycling, but you do people a great disservice by misleading them regarding the very real increased risk.

In short: take the lessons, read up on riding safe, get a beater 250 bike to learn on for 1-2 months (put at least 3-5k miles on it), sell it for more then you paid for it, and decide what you want to do after that, either get the FRS/BRZ or get the supersport.

Used bike is a GREAT idea, for a LOT longer than 1-2 months! I've kept mine for 9 years...
Kept my first used bike for 10 years. I've only ever bought used bikes, on a couple of occasions only 1 or 2 years old. Saved literally tens of thousands of $$$ this way.

For MOST people, a supersport isn't going to be as enjoyable to ride in the real world as a sportbike with less track-focused ergos.

If you're going to the track, get a supersport. If not tracking but enjoy twisty backroads, I STRONGLY recommend other sportbikes with more reasonable real-world ergos.
Kawasaki:
Ninja 250/300/650, heck even the Ninja 1000 or Z1000 if monster torque is desired.
Yamaha FZ6, FZ8, FZ1
Honda CBR250R, CBR500R, CB500F, CB1000R
Suzuki SFV650 (or, better, used SV650)
Triumph Street Triple or Speed Triple

etc. etc.
PLENTY of great sportbikes out there that aren't as severely compromised as the 600 supersports are.

[86fanatic]

ZDan - regarding safety on a motorcycle, it might help to read my entire post before responding point by point making assumptions about things I never said. I never once said that riding a motorcycle is safer, my point was that on car forums especially, people overstate the danger of motorcycles and hand wave over the danger of driving. You also put your life into your hands every time you get into a car, and even when walking across the street.

Regarding actual motorcycle injuries and deaths, if you look at the statistics, a large fraction of people dying:

- aren't wearing a helmet or any protective gear
- are drinking and riding
- never had formal training
- many don't even have a legal license to ride

It's not as simple as looking at total deaths, miles ridden per death, or anything else. Yes, I'll say it again, riding a motorcycle is much more dangerous then driving a car, but if you are smart about it, and avoid the above stupid behavior that account for a large fraction of deaths and injuries, you can be awfully underrepresented in the statistics.

Regarding sport bike ergonomics, hey, some people are perfectly comfortable on sport bikes and do ride them as daily riders. Every body fits each bike differently. The fact is sport bike ergonomics are that way for a reason, and they are a natural fit when doing sporty riding. I've been test riding a few bikes looking for my next bike, and honestly bikes with high handle bars just feel goofy to me, like the ergonomics are somehow wrong. For me to describe it, it was something like getting out of a low slung well balanced sports car like the FRS and jumping into a comfy high center of gravity SUV. The balance of the bike was all wrong and it made serious compromises for comfort which affected the whole experience negatively. I personally would never buy a bike with high handle bars, at least not at this stage of my life. You absolutely don't need to be at the track to feel the difference anymore so then you need to be at a track to feel the difference between an FRS and an SUV.

[86fanatic]

ZDan - regarding safety on a motorcycle, it might help to read my entire post before responding point by point making assumptions about things I never said. I never once said that riding a motorcycle is safer, my point was that on car forums especially, people overstate the danger of motorcycles and hand wave over the danger of driving. You also put your life into your hands every time you get into a car, and even when walking across the street.

Regarding actual motorcycle injuries and deaths, if you look at the statistics, a large fraction of people dying:

- aren't wearing a helmet or any protective gear
- are drinking and riding
- never had formal training
- many don't even have a legal license to ride

It's not as simple as looking at total deaths, miles ridden per death, or anything else. Yes, I'll say it again, riding a motorcycle is much more dangerous then driving a car, but if you are smart about it, and avoid the above stupid behavior that account for a large fraction of deaths and injuries, you can be awfully underrepresented in the statistics.

Regarding sport bike ergonomics, hey, some people are perfectly comfortable on sport bikes and do ride them as daily riders. Every body fits each bike differently. The fact is sport bike ergonomics are that way for a reason, and they are a natural fit when doing sporty riding. I've been test riding a few bikes looking for my next bike, and honestly bikes with high handle bars just feel goofy to me, like the ergonomics are somehow wrong. For me to describe it, it was something like getting out of a low slung well balanced sports car like the FRS and jumping into a comfy high center of gravity SUV. The balance of the bike was all wrong and it made serious compromises for comfort which affected the whole experience negatively. I personally would never buy a bike with high handle bars, at least not at this stage of my life. You absolutely don't need to be at the track to feel the difference anymore so then you need to be at a track to feel the difference between an FRS and an SUV.

[Endless Mike]

Don't get a 600 for your first bike. Don't get a new bike for your first bike. If you want a sport bike, get one, but get a lower powered, used one. If you like the sport riding position, then I'm certainly not going to tell you otherwise (I greatly prefer the standard position). What I will tell you is what lots of others have said in that you will learn to ride far better with something smaller and lower powered. The nice thing about bikes is that if you want lower bars or higher pegs to get that tucked in position, those are easy and fairly cheap mods, especially on popular bikes like a Ninja 250 or 500 or an SV650S or whatever. The other nice thing is that you can get those bikes rather cheap and resell them for what you paid or, if you're lucky, a bit more after a year or two before buying a 600. To put things in perspective, a stock CBR will do 0-60 on par with a 997 GT2, which is not a car I would put a new driver in and speed in a car is nothing like speed on a bike.

Speaking of death and injury statistics, you're correct in what a large number are related to. You missed a couple other important things: over half are on people with less than five months of experience on their current bike and less than three years total experience. That's the time you're developing your street riding skills which are *not* related to track riding skills. Awareness, emergency stopping, just how to operate a cycle are all things you are picking up early on.

[automatic]

Originally Posted by ducatichick

Lots of good info here, but I'll add my own 2 cents anyway. I've been riding for almost 25 years and roadraced hard for 4 years.

Don't buy a 600 sport bike, especially new, as your first bike. Go for a 250, ride it for at least a year, and make sure you get bored with it before you move up to your next bike.

By starting w/a small bike you'll learn how to ride better - and be faster in the long run.

I've had all kinds of sport bikes - lost count. But I started on a piece of shit dirt bike, then had another junker, and another, and finally got a new sport bike as my 4th bike. After buying my 5th sport bike (ZX9) and 1st Ducati (916) I got a big trophy - wreckless driving. That's when I started racing.

I raced a Honda RS 125 for years - actually raced against Ben Spies in 1998. That kid beat me but now I don't feel so bad! I started on a 600 F3 but it was a handful and that class is stupid - headed for the smaller bikes where I learned some skills that really paid off later. With a small bike (or car like the BRZ) you learn to carry corner speed - something you're less likely to learn by starting on a 600+.

Twins definitely have more useful power for street riding. The SV650 would be an ok starter bike and great track bike - same with the Ninja 650.

My advice: get a 250 or 650 for the street, ride it for a year or so, then take it to the track. If you still want a street bike by then, you'll probably want something bigger than a 250/650.

Best advise here....

I've owned and ridden bikes from a Ninja 250, CBR125R, CBR600RR, CBR125R, SV1000S, DRZ400SM in that order (yes I listed CBR125R twice because I sold mine then bought another one later because small bikes can be fun!) I currently have the CBR600RR and DRZ400SM and I can say that the DRZ400SM is the most fun bike out of all of them!

Although I used to commute with my bike, I refuse to anymore because of the time it takes to put on my gear (I wear full gear all the time) and the idiots I have to share the road with. My riding time consists of weekend rides out into the boonies where there are less hazards with other vehicles.

My advise too is to get a 250/650 as you will learn faster in the long run. Sure you can survive on the street getting a 600SS as a first bike but you likely wont be nearly as skilled as someone who started on a small bike.

Take this as an example, I went to the track this summer hauling both my 13hp CBR125R (top speed 120km/h on a good day) and my 110hp CBR600RR. I had way more fun on the CBR125R as I could carry much more corner speed than on my CBR600RR. Some 600/1000s were holding me up too even though there are two long straight aways (where the 600/1000s can easily hit 200km/h). Although I was getting killed in the straights I would catch up to riders who were not as skilled in the 3-4 corner. These skills transferred over when I hopped back on my CBR600RR.

The 600RR COULD be comfortable depending on how well you fit on it ....I did a 12 000km 16 day trip averaging 750km/day from Toronto to LA 2 years ago...although the ergoes were not exactly perfect, it was bareable. Other people I know cannot bare to sit on it for more than 30 mins.

[Innova]

I learned on a yamanha vstar 250, and a 20111 ninja 250...moved up to a 2011 sportster 48 1200cc and then found my limit... a Ninja ZX14 - 200whp super bike. Yea that thing tried to kill me. Luckilly I got off with just a broken leg. Should have stuck with the Harley. Tons of fun and just fast enough. The 1400 ninja made me learn my limits.

[Endless Mike]

Yeah, I sold my DRZ last year. Stupidly fun bike, but the seat was like torture. By the time I'd get anywhere to actually have fun with it, I'd want to turn around and go home.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by 86fanatic

I never once said that riding a motorcycle is safer, my point was that on car forums especially, people overstate the danger of motorcycles and hand wave over the danger of driving.

The risk of death and injury *is* much much MUCH greater, *many times* greater vs. driving a car.

You also put your life into your hands every time you get into a car, and even when walking across the street.

And when you take a shower. There is a SUBSTANTIAL difference in risk of death between these activities!

Regarding actual motorcycle injuries and deaths, if you look at the statistics, a large fraction of people dying:
- aren't wearing a helmet or any protective gear

This is a biggie, of course, but not as big as you might think. 4833 died in 2007, NHTSA estimates that if all had been wearing helmets, 800 lives would have been saved, knocking fatalities down to 4033. That cuts risk per mile traveled vs. cars down from 32x to 26x.

- are drinking and riding

The percentage is about the same between driving and riding, ~30% of fatalities. If you don't drink when you drive or ride, we're probably still at about the same level of increased risk of death riding vs. driving, ~26x.

- never had formal training

If you're the kind of guy to get formal training on a motorcycle, you're likely far below the normal risk level driving a car, too. Fact is, most people are never properly trained to do either...
Take motorcycle training and you'll probably reduce your risk driving a car as well.
For sure, training reduces risk. But there will *still* be a *much* greater risk of death on the bike. If training cut fatality rate in half (without improving fatality rate driving a car), which has got to be TREMENDOUSLY exaggerating its effectiveness, you're still at 13x the risk vs. driving.

- many don't even have a legal license to ride

Holy crap, 25% fatalities in the previously linked report for 2007! Don't have data on cars, but even assuming ALL car fatalities were licensed, we're still at 10 times the risk.

It's not as simple as looking at total deaths, miles ridden per death, or anything else. Yes, I'll say it again, riding a motorcycle is much more dangerous then driving a car, but if you are smart about it, and avoid the above stupid behavior that account for a large fraction of deaths and injuries, you can be awfully underrepresented in the statistics.

Absolutely.

Regarding sport bike ergonomics, hey, some people are perfectly comfortable on sport bikes and do ride them as daily riders. Every body fits each bike differently. The fact is sport bike ergonomics are that way for a reason, and they are a natural fit when doing sporty riding.

In my experience on the street and at the track, 600cc and other extreme supersport bike ergos are VERY well suited to the track when you're at 8-10/10ths (and beyond!) *all* the time. The sportiest riding anybody should be doing on the street is going to be more like 7/10ths, and that's only going to be possible for a *very* small percentag of the time. And anyway, at 7/10ths, for me, naked sportbike ergos work great.

I've been test riding a few bikes looking for my next bike, and honestly bikes with high handle bars just feel goofy to me, like the ergonomics are somehow wrong. For me to describe it, it was something like getting out of a low slung well balanced sports car like the FRS and jumping into a comfy high center of gravity SUV.

What "bikes with high handlebars" are you talking about? Sport naked, less extreme sportbike, or cruiser?

The balance of the bike was all wrong and it made serious compromises for comfort which affected the whole experience negatively.

No newb I've *ever* seen on a supersport could be described as anything other than hopelessly awkward while trying to get used to both riding a motorcycle and the extreme hands low and tight-in, ass high, feet way up and back riding position.
Yeah, you can get used to it, plenty do, but IMO, it's far from optimal for real-world street riding, even very enthusiastic back-roads riding.

I personally would never buy a bike with high handle bars, at least not at this stage of my life. You absolutely don't need to be at the track to feel the difference anymore so then you need to be at a track to feel the difference between an FRS and an SUV.

Again, what "high handlebar" bikes are you talking about? There's practically an infinite variety of streetbike ergos outside the extreme supersport world. IMO, more "standard" sportbikes and nakeds are about the ideal for tearing up backroads while also being quite trackable (if not ideal for the track).
A Triumph Street Triple definitely shouldn't feel like an SUV relative to a 675 Daytona.

To each his own, of course, but I will *always* cringe when the inevitable "just get a 600 ss!" advice to newbs pops up. I think that for most people who just want to have fun riding on the street (including twisty backroads with reasonable pace), extreme supersports are a poor choice.

[Xdragonxb0i]

i wouldnt Reccomend a 600 for a new bike. My first bike is and still is a ex500. Carb and produced 40hp, any new 600hp put out about 70hp.

If you really want a bike i say get a used 250 or ex500. You will drop your bike! i wrecked mines the first day i took it home. definitely didnt take a MSC, or crashed my bike going 30mph, i was going to fast for what i was comfortable with and i push the brakes to hard to cause me to slide/wreck

[Endless Mike]

Originally Posted by Xdragonxb0i

i wouldnt Reccomend a 600 for a new bike. My first bike is and still is a ex500. Carb and produced 40hp, any new 600hp put out about 70hp.

70 hp from a 600 ss? Try over 100 at the wheel. A 650 twin (SV650, Ninja 650/ER6n) will be around 70.