TSC VSC

[a.beck]

Yeah these nannies, while great for some, are definitely for me one of the negatives of my "upgrade".

They'll be off most of the time. If I'm honest, it'll be nice to have them available though.

[Nafe]

Originally Posted by kster

I would just practice on the streets and just keep an eye out for the cops and hope no unmarked police cars catch you. Although i wouldn't recommend it if you want to keep your driving priveleges.

Other than that try a skid pan day that should help.

I used to drift very seriously, and drifting on the street IS NOT a good idea ESPECIALLY if you are only learning and don't know what you're doing...
Don't be a retard, skid pan and track days are cheap....

[RyleyMA61]

yeah i turn it off, i have never had cars with it on and i drive them cautiously when conditions require. 600Nm + bald tyres + bad surface + wet roads = one very slow driving experience

brings back the argument - just because tyres are sliding or spinning does not necessarily mean the car is out of control (driver dependant)

so for me i will have them off.

[Varvs]

a question for the heroes that drive every second with all assists off:

in what fashion does having these safety measures on infringe on your driving experience on public roads? not 'spirited drives' or mountain runs, your day to day, traffic light to traffic light traffic.

What exactly are these electronic systems crippling in your experience that you so desperately need to disable them?

Hint: "ego" is not a valid answer.

[MACCAA]

Originally Posted by Varvs

a question for the heroes that drive every second with all assists off:

in what fashion does having these safety measures on infringe on your driving experience on public roads? not 'spirited drives' or mountain runs, your day to day, traffic light to traffic light traffic.

What exactly are these electronic systems crippling in your experience that you so desperately need to disable them?

Hint: "ego" is not a valid answer.

Couldn't agree with you more.
I do Advanced Driver Training and,trust me,the vast majority of people greatly overestimate their ability.
How many people do you know that don't think that they're good [or even very good.....]drivers?
The reality in my experience is very different.
By all means turn off VSC/ESP systems on a race track once you have garnered some basic skills,but there is no reason to do so on public roads.
If you turn them off,and are driving along next to a B double in the rain that decides it wants your lane,trust me your swerve and recover manouvre will be greatly compromised.
We've done this type of scenario at some of the courses,with ESP/VSC on and off,and the results can be potentially devastating with it off.
It's all very well to think these systems are hindering your driving pleasure,but when something goes wrong out of the blue they can literally save your life.
I know just how fast you can lap a race track without the systems interfering much,and if you're triggering them on public roads,you're overdriving the car.
By their very nature they operate when you're exceeding the level of grip of your car.
Sure as Instructors we turn them off on the Track,but mine are very much turned ON for public roads.
In a perfect world we wouldn't need doors or seat belts but unexpected stuff that happens out of the blue can kill you in a second.
I [and my 2 passengers] survived a massive accident some years ago on the way back from the Surfers Paradise races that probably
would have killed us all if the ESP was off,due to the"manouvres" I had to perform to avoid a car carrier on my side of the road.
One minute we were quiety cruising along at 100kph,next we were spread all over the Highway[but we missed the truck]
You can't predict where it's going to go very wrong sometimes,and being an innocent party doesn't make it hurt any less.[5 broken ribs,punctured lung,etc]
And when it does,you'll be thankfull for all the help you can get.
Cheers
Len

[Devie]

Thats something I like to hear right there and exactly how I feel about it.

I do consider myself to be a good driver. The reason I made this thread was to see peoples opinions on the driver assists. As I mentioned in the OP I have had advanced driver training in an STi, Evo 8 and an XR8 Ute. That ute was especially tail happy.
You never know when going around a corner for there to be oil or some other slippery substance on the road causing you to to lose control. Bang. Either your life, or innocent others, are in danger, let alone your new shiny toy.

I'm very happy to be leaving my assist on .

[Walla Walla]

Originally Posted by MACCAA

Couldn't agree with you more.
I do Advanced Driver Training and,trust me,the vast majority of people greatly overestimate their ability.
How many people do you know that don't think that they're good [or even very good.....]drivers?
The reality in my experience is very different.
By all means turn off VSC/ESP systems on a race track once you have garnered some basic skills,but there is no reason to do so on public roads.
If you turn them off,and are driving along next to a B double in the rain that decides it wants your lane,trust me your swerve and recover manouvre will be greatly compromised.
We've done this type of scenario at some of the courses,with ESP/VSC on and off,and the results can be potentially devastating with it off.
It's all very well to think these systems are hindering your driving pleasure,but when something goes wrong out of the blue they can literally save your life.
I know just how fast you can lap a race track without the systems interfering much,and if you're triggering them on public roads,you're overdriving the car.
By their very nature they operate when you're exceeding the level of grip of your car.
Sure as Instructors we turn them off on the Track,but mine are very much turned ON for public roads.
In a perfect world we wouldn't need doors or seat belts but unexpected stuff that happens out of the blue can kill you in a second.
I [and my 2 passengers] survived a massive accident some years ago on the way back from the Surfers Paradise races that probably
would have killed us all if the ESP was off,due to the"manouvres" I had to perform to avoid a car carrier on my side of the road.
One minute we were quiety cruising along at 100kph,next we were spread all over the Highway[but we missed the truck]
You can't predict where it's going to go very wrong sometimes,and being an innocent party doesn't make it hurt any less.[5 broken ribs,punctured lung,etc]
And when it does,you'll be thankfull for all the help you can get.
Cheers
Len

I cannot agree with you more, yes, in those situation, vsc and all those gadget will probably help you a lot..

STILL... i keep them off... not because i am reckless... i drive responsibly, and when all that electronic stuff is on, I don't KNOW when my car reach it's limit, when it will stop to grip...

and the day i will lose control with all that assitance ON, i will really lose it...

i drive safely, with all the assistance off, and as an exemple, i don't try to overtake a 53 foot truck on the highway when it rains.... why? because i know it is risky and i could oversteer or understeer...

all that electronic assistance, make the car react not like it is supposed to, not normally, and then it change your judgment on what is your real driving limit.... probably it help a lot of drivers... but i prefer to learn, and drive slower on snow or rain, while still knowing that if i smash the gaz in a curve, i could loose it....

then again... if you don't have the judgment to drive without those, and you don't take precaution on your car's handling depending on the condition of the road... maybe it ain't the best choice of car for you..... it's still a small sports car rwd after all...

[kster]

I have been experiementing with Trac off this last week, today driving through Lamington National park it was definitely more fun feeling the tires spin through the corners and dirt just a more natural feeling.

Although i havn't been through any advanced driving courses i feel more confidient with them off than on especially when it is raining as TSC is too interferring in those conditions.

Another thing i don't like is having to press down the off everytime i start it wish there was option for off by default.

[MACCAA]

Guys,you're just not getting the point.
Under good conditions,good line of sight etc it doesn't make much difference on or off.
It's when the unexpected happens,or an unknown corner tightens up,or someone runs a red in the wet in front of you and you have to do a violent swerve,that ESP/VSC can save your life.
And it doesn't matter how good you[think] you are,you can't control all the elements and other drivers around you.
You can leave all the gaps you want,but other drivers may not operate to the same programme.
I think I'm more carefull than a lot of drivers,but I still ended up in hospital for ten days through no fault of my driving.
I've had people turn up at the Track,turn everything off[despite never having even seen the track],and proceed straight to the scene of the accident.....after being told to leave it on for a while.
Like I said,the difference between perceived skill levels and reality can be huge,and in most cases,is.
Doing skids in Maccas car park doesn't rate much talent-wise.
Like I said,by all means enjoy your cars,but responsibly under controlled conditions,not public roads.
I ran my 86GT at Wakefield recently in VSC Sport mode as a test,and was amazed by how good it was at speed.
If you think you should turn everything off on the road,you're going way too fast.
Our cars have a very good VSC compared to some,so just use the Sport mode if you're so inclined.
At the track you're responsible for your decisions,on public roads other people can be involved.
Have fun but do it safely.
Cheers
Len

[Nafe]

Originally Posted by Varvs

a question for the heroes that drive every second with all assists off:

in what fashion does having these safety measures on infringe on your driving experience on public roads? not 'spirited drives' or mountain runs, your day to day, traffic light to traffic light traffic.

What exactly are these electronic systems crippling in your experience that you so desperately need to disable them?

Hint: "ego" is not a valid answer.

So I must be a "hero" because I drive with them off??
I don't have an ego, nor do I think I am a "hero".
What I do know is my driving capabilities, and I know the car is more capable than I am.
So have you never driven or owned a car without them?? How do you think people survive in cars that don't even have these "aids"??
You do realise that cars haven't always had them, right??

[Nafe]

Len, You make some good points and I understand where you are coming from. However, I will pose the same question to you as I did Varvs... How did we all function and stay alive before the invention of these aids?? Until now I have NEVER owned a car with traction or stability control, and I am still alive
While yes, they can save lives (I don't doubt or say otherwise), can you not see how they can also make people lazy/complacent??
I haven't had my car at the track yet, but I will soon enough, so I can't comment on how the VSC effects it's performance there yet, but it does reduce the fun you have, especially on track where, while a little sideways isn't fastest, it does provide good fun.

Originally Posted by MACCAA

Guys,you're just not getting the point.
Under good conditions,good line of sight etc it doesn't make much difference on or off.
It's when the unexpected happens,or an unknown corner tightens up,or someone runs a red in the wet in front of you and you have to do a violent swerve,that ESP/VSC can save your life.
And it doesn't matter how good you[think] you are,you can't control all the elements and other drivers around you.
You can leave all the gaps you want,but other drivers may not operate to the same programme.
I think I'm more carefull than a lot of drivers,but I still ended up in hospital for ten days through no fault of my driving.
I've had people turn up at the Track,turn everything off[despite never having even seen the track],and proceed straight to the scene of the accident.....after being told to leave it on for a while.
Like I said,the difference between perceived skill levels and reality can be huge,and in most cases,is.
Doing skids in Maccas car park doesn't rate much talent-wise.
Like I said,by all means enjoy your cars,but responsibly under controlled conditions,not public roads.
I ran my 86GT at Wakefield recently in VSC Sport mode as a test,and was amazed by how good it was at speed.
If you think you should turn everything off on the road,you're going way too fast.
Our cars have a very good VSC compared to some,so just use the Sport mode if you're so inclined.
At the track you're responsible for your decisions,on public roads other people can be involved.
Have fun but do it safely.
Cheers
Len

[kster]

My last car although boring and slow i.e camry, had no TSC or ABS or airbags and i didn't have any issues even when locking up i was able to modulate my braking.

If you are not confidient enough leave all safeties on, but telling us that turning them off is dangerous is absurd as per above makes you complacent and rely on them to safe you.

[MACCAA]

Nafe,you ask "how did we survive and stay alive" when these systems were'nt around.
Go back and check the Road Toll figures from those eras-it's massively higher than current ones.....
And kster,how's your brake modulating when someone runs a red light in the wet in front of you?
I can tell you-we used to do an exercise that replicated this-both feet on the brakes and everything locked up...and that's when they knew something was imminent.
We used to remove the ABS fuse and let people of your mindset try and beat the ABS in the wet-don't remember it being done too often.
Biggest problem in Driver Training is Attitude.
We did countless tests[ie car suddenly appearing in front of you] with ABS on/off,VSC on/off in emergency situations and it was 100% better with them on.
We're not talking about "spirited driving" here but real world emergency stuff that occurs daily.
Confidence to leave them on is better than overconfidence turning them off....
Would you drive with your seatbelt off because you're a good driver and won't have an accident?
How much Driver Training and Testing have you guys done?
And no,Maccas car park doesn't count.
Cheers
Len

[kster]

I never stated i would be able to better an ABS system in the Wet/dry conditions as the computer would be best at pulsing the brakes to prevent lockup. Although a professional driver maybe able to which i am not.