BMW talk

[bestwheelbase]

Originally Posted by gmookher

jumpy throttle.

A major complaint from people who have seat time in the older cars. This is the reason I never use the "sport" button in my Z4.

[Max Schnell]

My E36 M3 has check engine light, airbag light, taillight out message, ripped weather seal, clunks from the rear, periodically refuse to start, some periodic vacuum leak from god knows where, wierd electrical gremlins, sloppy shifter and eats oil.

I take out my aggravation with the car by driving it like I hate it. I end up getting out with a smile every time.

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by Max Schnell

My E36 M3 has check engine light, airbag light, taillight out message, ripped weather seal, clunks from the rear, periodically refuse to start, some periodic vacuum leak from god knows where, wierd electrical gremlins, sloppy shifter and eats oil.

I take out my aggravation with the car by driving it like I hate it. I end up getting out with a smile every time.

lol.. sounds like a love/hate relationship!

[RaceR]

Lets get into some Christmas mood! Some funny experiments!

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjncA7jau2g"]THE FASTEST CHRISTMAS SONG IN THE WORLD - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og7kdt1RVMw"]THE FASTEST CHRISTMAS CARD IN THE WORLD. - YouTube[/ame]

[ahausheer]

Sorry just couldnt read all the previous. Can someone explain the logic of having a 2 door 5 series that is the same as the 6 series in all but looks? I thought the new convention is: 2 door = even number series?

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by ahausheer

Sorry just couldnt read all the previous. Can someone explain the logic of having a 2 door 5 series that is the same as the 6 series in all but looks? I thought the new convention is: 2 door = even number series?

In the future, 2,4 and 6-series will be coupe and cabriolet versions. I think they are supposed to be a little "up-market" compared to the models below as well.
GC = Grand Cupe = 4-door coupes. We will probably see 2,4 and 6 series with 2 and 4 doors.
1,3,5,7 series are mostly sedans and Touring (station wagon). But there will GT, and hatchbacks (1-series only).

I don't think coupe and lots of names are sacred anymore. We see all kinds of cross-overs now to suit every market and every style.

Just look at the 5-series Gran Turismo (GT).
Its almost a mix between sedan, coupe (hatchback style), station wagon (touring in BMW language) and a SAV (Sport Activiy Vehicle. BMW language for SUV made for mainly for road use).

BMW are basically expanding their line-up to appeal to a wider audience.
More models, and several types of design. Also a bunch of engines to choose from. Therefore they will utilize more numbers to easier differentiate their models. Might be a little messy in the transition. But I think it will work out fine.
____________________

Future lineup will probably look like this when looking at the 3/4 series:
3-series= Sedan, Touring, Gran Turismo, ActiveHybrid (sedan)
4-series= Coupe, Grand Coupe, Cabriolet
____________________
Other series will have different models. 1-series (hatcback) are both in 3/5 door versions.
2-series will come i several versions like the future 4 series but maybe even with a Grand Sports Tourer (more like a hyundai veloster in terms of body shape)
Im not sure what will happen to the RWD 1-series in the future when the FWD cars will arrive.. Time will tell. Either way. Lots of new BMW models in the future..

[Ryephile]

Do they really need 12 model line-ups, with 5 of them having a barrage of unique sheetmetal amongst them? This is ignoring the //M offerings too, which have their own sheet metal too.

*1-er hatch 3 & 5 doors
*2-er coupe and GC and 'vert
*3-er sedan and wagon and GT
*4-er coupe and GC and 'vert
*5-er sedan and wagon and GT and LWB sedan for China
*6-er coupe and GC and 'vert
*7-er sedan short and long wheelbase
*X1
*X3
*X5
*X6
*Z4

That's a rather busy portfolio for a company that doesn't sell all that many cars. I'm not sure I see long-term financial viability with so many micro-niche offerings.

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

Do they really need 12 model line-ups, with 5 of them having a barrage of unique sheetmetal amongst them? This is ignoring the //M offerings too, which have their own sheet metal too.

*1-er hatch 3 & 5 doors
*2-er coupe and GC and 'vert
*3-er sedan and wagon and GT
*4-er coupe and GC and 'vert
*5-er sedan and wagon and GT and LWB sedan for China
*6-er coupe and GC and 'vert
*7-er sedan short and long wheelbase
*X1
*X3
*X5
*X6
*Z4

That's a rather busy portfolio for a company that doesn't sell all that many cars. I'm not sure I see long-term financial viability with so many micro-niche offerings.

Yupp, and more models coming. The lines seems to be expanding.
They are introducing i-series. And new FWD cars too.

I would not say they are micro-nice offerings. BMW sales are increasing, and quite good. They are adjusting to the times and meeting new markets while making production costs lower per car.

Here are some US numbers for November, a great month for BMW in the US. Insane growth compared to last year at the same time:


Worldwide BMW sales, first half year.


Worldwide Mini sales, first half year.


Mini have also been expanding. Mini coupe, Mini Roadster, and now Mini Paceman

(BMW also have Rolls-Royce)

BMW+Mini Wordwide sales are: 900k in the first 6 months. I think the 2. half of the year is better. So numbers might be close to 2 million cars sold in 2012.

By increasing the line-up BMW are also decreasing the cost of production per car by a little. As long as sales, market shares and overall profit are increasing they will not stop increasing the line-up.

Considering that the VW group are made by Audi, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Porsche, SEAT, Skoda and Volkswagen I would assume they have several production advantages. Especially Audi, Skoda, Seat and VW, which in many cases use the same engines and chassis, and mix many components.
Looks like the new thing is to either go big or go home.. Or collaborate.. Which several manufacturers are doing.

Mini (BMW) have collaborated with the PSA group. Peugeot/Citroen on the engine in the Mini.
BMW have some stuff going on with Toyota in terms of engines and EV-technology.
BMW are also collaborating with Boeing (the airplanes!) on carbon fiber. Which BMW plan to use a lot of in the future, starting with their i-cars.
They probably have lots of other stuff going on too.

[ZDan]

All those models, and no place for anything remotely as cool as a 2002tii or E30 M3? But with niches for giant, ugly, high-c.g. SUV-like sedan and a hulking 4-door laughably called "Gran Turismo" and "Gran Coupe"?!

BMW can suck it.

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by ZDan

All those models, and no place for anything remotely as cool as a 2002tii or E30 M3? But with niches for giant, ugly, high-c.g. SUV-like sedan and a hulking 4-door laughably called "Gran Turismo" and "Gran Coupe"?!

BMW can suck it.

I agree with you on the 2002tii and E30 M3. I would love to see a BMW made more like those cars, or more like the GT86.
I think its a shame BMW have dropped out on LSD as an option on lower powered models. And the stupid comfort mode when turning off all electronics.
That is the top of stupidity! There are many other things I could say. But I think they have the potential to make some good cars in the near future when looking at the 2-series.

But lets not forget. What have become of the 3-series now? It have gotten big and fatter. But look at the modern day rivals. Its all the same for them. BMW are not to be blamed for making their best selling car fit the modern day safety regulations and still be "bigger and better". A trend we see in Europe, but that you Americans know all about..
A new model should not be smaller. Usually, larger and "better".

You will not be able to buy a new sedan with the size and design of the E30 due to saftey regulations. A VW Golf MK1 GTI (rabbit) have gotten large and fat as well. All cars have. Dont blame BMW for following the evolution.

Which cars today are really comparable to 2002tii and E30 M3? Those cars had 4 usable seats. Atleast way better than the 2+2 in GT86.

From BMW, the closest thing you will get E30 are the new 1 and 2 series. The new "F" series models are actually lighter than previous generation. If they are too comfortable and heavy, rip out all the sound isolation, airbags, climate control etc.. etc.. It will get a decent weight. I know you don't get them in the US. (2-series will be there with larger engines) But the new 1-series with 1.6 turbo only weight 50-60kg more than a fully equipped GT86 as far as I can read from the specs.

Compare Subaru Impreza in the UK vs BMW sales.
BMW 3 Series 34,340
BMW 1 Series 25,128
Subaru Impreza 173

Impreza was an icon. 10 years ago the 1-series did not even exist.. Now they sell more 1-series in 2 days than all Imprezas sold over a whole year!

Sadly to say, but if BMW were just as focused on E30s as we enthusiasts were, they would probably not do that well.
For a car manufacturer, sales and profit are the two things that keep them alive.

2-series M-coupe will probably be the closest thing to a modern day E30. Especially if it gets 4-cylinders and focus more on weight.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by RaceR

But lets not forget. What have become of the 3-series now?

German Buicks.

It have gotten big and fatter. But look at the modern day rivals.

In the words of Cool Hand Luke "that don't make it *right*."

Its all the same for them. BMW are not to be blamed for making their best selling car fit the modern day safety regulations and still be "bigger and better".

I'm blaming them.

You will not be able to buy a new sedan with the size and design of the E30 due to saftey regulations. A VW Golf MK1 GTI (rabbit) have gotten large and fat as well. All cars have. Dont blame BMW for following the evolution.

Take the 86 twins. Replace the swoopy/fastback "coupe" styling with upright "sedan" styling, and you have a proper modern 2002/E30, at less than 2800 lb.

Which cars today are really comparable to 2002tii and E30 M3?

There are none. And BMW isn't even remotely trying to give us one, while they have an extensive lineup of oversized/overwrought/overweight models.

Those cars had 4 usable seats. Atleast way better than the 2+2 in GT86.

Seats in the back of the 2002 and E30 aren't tremendously capacious, but there is headroom.

Sadly to say, but if BMW were just as focused on E30s as we enthusiasts were, they would probably not do that well.

Most people assume that, but I don't think that's necessarily the case. In particular, I think they would have sold MORE 1- and 3-series if they'd made the 1-series a lot smaller/simpler/cheaper/lighter-weight. Instead, it's a barely smaller/lighter version of the Buick-size/weight 3-series.

2-series M-coupe will probably be the closest thing to a modern day E30. Especially if it gets 4-cylinders and focus more on weight.

We'll see, but I have next to no hope for BMW building true minimalist enthusiast machines going forward. The company that built the 2002 and E30, and also reasonable size/weight midsized E28 as well, is apparently gone forever

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Take the 86 twins. Replace the swoopy/fastback "coupe" styling with upright "sedan" styling, and you have a proper modern 2002/E30, at less than 2800 lb.

I love the idea. Even more the hatcback designed by ichitaka05. You might have seen it. But even with decent headroom it would be quite cramped, but much more usable.
Its been some time since I was in the back of an E30, but I can not remember having zero space on top of my shoes and having to take them of my shoes to get something that resembled comfort. I think the E30 generally was more spacious in the back. Some E30 owners might have a more accurate description. I cant comment on the 2002. Never been in one, love the looks.
Either way, I think the GT86 would have to be a couple of more cm longer as well.

As for weight. The F21 118I is 1370kg, EU weight. If my numbers are right. That includes a driver at 75kg and 90% full tank.
So the car is 1295kg with a lot of fuel. Take out 25liters of fuel and you get 1270kg. Which equals:2800 pounds
If the car should be noticeably lighter it would have the become less premium, throw of safety equipment or start getting a lot of aluminium/CF parts..
That would not make it competitive against rivals in terms of.. anything..
It could maybe get more special made lighter parts, instead of sharing lots of stuff with the 3-series drivetrain, but that would ruin the cost/cheap part.

Originally Posted by ZDan

Most people assume that, but I don't think that's necessarily the case. In particular, I think they would have sold MORE 1- and 3-series if they'd made the 1-series a lot smaller/simpler/cheaper/lighter-weight. Instead, it's a barely smaller/lighter version of the Buick-size/weight 3-series.

The E81/87 (1.gen hatcback) were criticed for not having enough back seat space. I thought it was fine. But the press criticized it. And it went through the classical (bigger and better procedure). Why people had to complain about the space inside the 1.gen 1-series instead of just buying a 3-series I don't get. (okay, main competitors stuff.. but still)
Comparing 1-series (1.gen) against its FWD rivals it was heavier, less practical, and more cramped. Especially in the back. Mainly due to its RWD layout.

2.gen fixed the space issue and got larger, while shedding off weight. Its getting criticized a little for space. BMW will probably (/sadly)"fix" that with FWD in the future. That will also fix weight and efficiency...

Not sure if you are familiar with the EU market. But 7. gen VW Golf is not considered a premium car. Its the best selling car in Europe and have been for near 30 years, and its interior is almost in the same league as the "Premium interior" in the 1-series.. It probably exceeds 1.gen 1-series.
Some interior snobs could still complain about the new F20/21 1-series interior being a bit cheap compared BMWs and Audis higher up in their lines, even if its is highly improved.
I don't think BMW could have pulled out the "cheaper" or smaller "card" and had the success they are having with the 1-series.
Lighter? I specified above, but the new car with a small engine is reasonable light. Again, remove its comforts and it would not weigh that much more compared to the 86. But it would have 100% better seat space in the back.
Of course that will not be the case when you put 240+/320hp torque monsters in them. They also need drivetrain and stopping power for that stuff. Blame your fellow americans for buying large cars, otherwise BMW would probably have sold....
114I
116I
118I
125I
116D
118D
120D
125D
...in the states as well.

Reality over here is that a BMW 114I is not that much more in base price compared to a VW Golf with equivalent engine. Its just easier to make it more expensive with "premium" options..
I believe the price and badge of a BMW were a lot more premium than a VW car in the 80s. Today, the prices and differences are not that high when comparing "similar" models. Many "normal cars" have become quite premium.

The sales numbers of the new 1-series just shows that BMW knows how to make cars for the public. Even if most online people seem to criticize it looks it gets great sales numbers.
Personally I have some issues with it, but overall its a great car.

Originally Posted by ZDan

We'll see, but I have next to no hope for BMW building true minimalist enthusiast machines going forward. The company that built the 2002 and E30, and also reasonable size/weight midsized E28 as well, is apparently gone forever

M2 Coupe CSL.. *fingers crossed* Altough personally I would like to have modern 2-series inspired by the E30is. M-cars gets way too much taxes in Norway. But everything depreciates in the future so its nice to have options to dream about.

As for the company that built reasonable size/weight cars.. it is still there... Cars have just changed..
BMW still use the same recipe they used when making the E30s.
-Typical family car sized car, check
-RWD, check
-Sporty handling, check
-Great engines, check
-More premium compared to average cars, check

Originally Posted by ZDan

German Buicks.

I dont know your definition of German Buicks. But you should watch this clip from Top Gear latest DVD.

18.15 BMW M3
22.25 BMW M5 vs old buick (Gymkhana)

M3 is not a buick in my eyes. If the M5 is a German Buick then I would not mind having a German Buick in my garage..

___
I do think BMW will make the same "mistake" and make the 2-series Coupe heavier than the hatchback once again.. hope im wrong.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by RaceR

As for the company that built reasonable size/weight cars.. it is still there... Cars have just changed..
BMW still use the same recipe they used when making the E30s.
-Typical family car sized car, check

The E30 was significantly smaller and lighter-weight than a "Typical family car sized car"! Latest 3-series, definitely "family car" size and weight...

-RWD, check

However, LONG gone are the days when you could equip the lowliest model (318i in the states) with a limited slip diff. Now you *have* to have an "M" car to get what I consider a *requirement* for any rwd car with sporting pretensions. And on top of that, instead of trying to give us a legitimately small and lightweight rwd platform, they're going fwd instead!

-Sporty handling, check

Excellent slalom and skidpad numbers, sure. But the additional size and mass subtract tremendously from the fun of the driving experience.

-Great engines, check

I'd like the cars a lot better if a 2.0 liter N/A four would be a sufficient powerplant.

-More premium compared to average cars, check

This part remains: they're definitely priced for the more affluent. Regardless of the $$$, I'd much rather they made smaller/simpler/lighter cars, which would require less powerful engines, smaller brakes, smaller wheels, smaller tires.

This is NOT the same company that gave us the 2002 and the E30 M3... This is a purveyor of oversized/overwrought/overweight luxury cars with a few minor nods to "sportiness".

M3 is not a buick in my eyes.

OK, Camaro then. It weighs as much as the newer, massive, bricklike Camaro. The E30 M3 weighed about 1000 lb. less! Huge strides made by BMW, in exactly the wrong direction

If the M5 is a German Buick then I would not mind having a German Buick in my garage..

I wouldn't mind it, but I'd rather have a proper sports sedan than a massive luxobarge. Honestly, I think the E28 M5 is a cooler car (though obviously a lot slower in any contest). Just like I think the E30 M3 is a cooler car than the current 3700+ lb. monstrosity.

The current BMW lineup is all but irrelevant to me. I could easily afford one, but I'd honestly rather have an FR-S or BRZ. BMW could learn a lot from these cars...

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by ZDan

The E30 was significantly smaller and lighter-weight than a "Typical family car sized car"! Latest 3-series, definitely "family car" size and weight...
However, LONG gone are the days when you could equip the lowliest model (318i in the states) with a limited slip diff. Now you *have* to have an "M" car to get what I consider a *requirement* for any rwd car with sporting pretensions. And on top of that, instead of trying to give us a legitimately small and lightweight rwd platform, they're going fwd instead!

Excellent slalom and skidpad numbers, sure. But the additional size and mass subtract tremendously from the fun of the driving experience.

I'd like the cars a lot better if a 2.0 liter N/A four would be a sufficient powerplant.

This part remains: they're definitely priced for the more affluent. Regardless of the $$$, I'd much rather they made smaller/simpler/lighter cars, which would require less powerful engines, smaller brakes, smaller wheels, smaller tires.

This is NOT the same company that gave us the 2002 and the E30 M3... This is a purveyor of oversized/overwrought/overweight luxury cars with a few minor nods to "sportiness".

OK, Camaro then. It weighs as much as the newer, massive, bricklike Camaro. The E30 M3 weighed about 1000 lb. less! Huge strides made by BMW, in exactly the wrong direction

I wouldn't mind it, but I'd rather have a proper sports sedan than a massive luxobarge. Honestly, I think the E28 M5 is a cooler car (though obviously a lot slower in any contest). Just like I think the E30 M3 is a cooler car than the current 3700+ lb. monstrosity.

The current BMW lineup is all but irrelevant to me. I could easily afford one, but I'd honestly rather have an FR-S or BRZ. BMW could learn a lot from these cars...

I totally agree 110% with what you say. I find my self nodding.. yes, yes.. So true, so right..
For the sake of discussion, I just end up taking the logic/rational way of thinking in stead of writing the stuff you do!

Ill just say one thing about the stuff you said.
yes, you would like the car better if it was a NA 2.0. But it would not be a success, unless they managed to make if much more efficient than the 86. The main market for the 1-series is in Europe. The contingent that aim for engines producing half the amount of CO2 of a typical 2.0L NA engine.
BMW would have shot themselves in the foot by doing that.
The efficient engines are a part of BMWs success over here. All competition basically have turbo engines. They would not have a chance if they went the normal NA route. Its just the way things are in EU. Some countries are worse than others. Im from one of the worst, I know..

Here is proof. Ill show some insanity:
BMW E81 116D (diesel, the work of satan, and a car that is quite "heavy" considering the 1.gen 1-series was not light and diesel engines add to that)
In 2009-2011 those engines had 115hp. But there was also a 90hp version. 90hp BMW in a new 2011 model BMW is something for you US guys to chew on.. :P
Anyway.. Those engines are based on the same 2l diesel engine that sits in the more powerful diesel versions.
A used car from 2010/2011 with very low milage are half the price of a GT86 in Norway. A little flash device from ESS-tuning. BOM! 180hp/420NM torque
Add Quaife LSD. Yes, these guys have to almost every BMW.
Add stiffer rear swaybar and some adjustable dampers. KW V3?
Add lightweight brakes..
Result: FUN new low millage toy at a reasonable price.

Id much rather do that on F20/F21 114I which have a much better chassis, and a petrol engine. But there are issues with the new BMWs.
1- Have not come across a way to get engine mapping into sport mode when DSC off. Default is comfort, which is not responsive at all.
2- No chip to make it into a more powerful 118I. Yes, I could just buy the 118I and maybe do a little tuning if desirable.
3-E-LSD are activated when DSC is off. It would probably not interfer with when a proper locking diff are installed, but Id feel better not running into the risk.

A dream OEM car would probably be more of hardcore "baby" m-car with around 230hp, and 4 usable seats (not much larger than the 86) Due to taxes, I would have chosen turbo and minimzed lag as much as possible. 1.5l high reving 3-cylinder engine (or some light weight KERS hybrid stuff that the GT86 might get). Give me a OS-giken style diff with 100% locking capacity too. It could be the baby M2 CSL, just like the E30 318is was the baby "m" car..
Fat "proper M-cars" could have more "sophisticated" stuff..

The only reason why 3-series are so fat is because of its size and engine, and not focusing enough on weight from the start.
F21 M135I weight 290 pounds more than F21 118I.
A performance 118is/218is (CSL) could easily get down to 2700pounds. A 2-series could as well if made right..
There are so many opportunities.

I have also dreamed about a Z2, maybe named Z22. A compact Z-series car with 2+2 layout. That would not mess up the normal BMW lineup.
The car would be a mix of a 218IS CSL and a GT86.

BMW will probably make a Z2 with fwd.