FA20CLUB Over Pipe Front Pipe & Cold Air Intake Now Ready

[mike2100]

Originally Posted by Sportsguy83

It has been well documented already by FA20, Visconti and forum members (with Dyno numbers and all) that to date (Before the FA20 intake) all available Intakes make negligible amount of power, even with a tune. Moreso, it has been documented that in order to run safe, all intakes require a tune because all of them have leaned out the mix a bit.

Kudos to FA20 for offering the complete package needed to run safe and make power.

Buuuut he said his intake makes 8-10 hp even without a tune.


In addition, it's been well documented by several exhaust makers that swapping out the front pipe makes power. But here we see that it causes a rich condition and power loss?

[FA20Club.com]

Originally Posted by mike2100

Buuuut he said his intake makes 8-10 hp even without a tune.


In addition, it's been well documented by several exhaust makers that swapping out the front pipe makes power. But here we see that it causes a rich condition and power loss?

intake only doesnt cause a power loss. the catless pipe pipe does because it induces the richened state. the intake only leans the car out and can lean it out to unwanted territory. its always best to check your afr after installing any complete intake that replaced the factory airbox housing since the maf readings wont be 100% accurate afterwards. thats why i feel perrin and avo went with the panel filter/tube combo cause they wouldnt have to offer a tuned solution. cause the airbox is still inuse. i have tested both versions and the gains they yield over stock are similar . an intake only will gain power depending on its design. when compared to what we gain with a tune only not much more thats why most say the intake gains are minimal. i find that fine tuning a intake with a custom flash can smooth out the powerband and add power in other places other than peak as well as increase throttle sensitivity, cam phasing, etc. peak power isnt everything this is why i offered the aFe with a tune not to gain tremendous peak numbers but to enhance where a bolt on system leaves off.

[Sportsguy83]

Originally Posted by Zadkiel

I'm just worried that when I get the AVO intake and a Perrin or Invidia Catted Frontpipe, it'll push the engine into the dangerous territory you mention. Unfortunately my other obligations, house, bills, heating oil, prevent me from really spending a lot of money at 1 time. $850 for a tune, license, and cable isn't really a financially feasible idea.

I understand you. If I were you, I would get the exhaust and a drop in filter. The Tune IS expensive. IMHO (and anyone can feel free to disagree with me), I just wouldn't get an intake with no tune.

Originally Posted by mike2100

Buuuut he said his intake makes 8-10 hp even without a tune.

In addition, it's been well documented by several exhaust makers that swapping out the front pipe makes power. But here we see that it causes a rich condition and power loss?

Remember that this platform is new, and we are all learning on the fly here. There are TONS of offerings for frontpipes, and each will be designed differently. I can definitely see where a particular brand of frontpipe caused that condition, but I wouldn't bet my money all frontpipes cause it. (Just for clarification, I am SURE what FA20 is saying is true, there are some frontpipe designs that cause this rich condition, just saying not all should do it).

Do your research on reputable companies and go with them. FA20 has been shown to be extremely transparent, and standup guys for their products. (And one more for the record, I am not their customer, I am just an outsider looking in).

[TyperRspec789]

I really don't understand how removing the secondary cat in the frontpipe induces richer AFR. There is NO O2 sensor on the secondary cat. The O2 sensor is in the header after the primary cat.

More exhaust flow causes richer conditions?

[lbroskee]

what dyno do you use? my friend is getting 160WHP with just exhaust

[FA20Club.com]

Originally Posted by TyperRspec789

I really don't understand how removing the secondary cat in the frontpipe induces richer AFR. There is NO O2 sensor on the secondary cat. The O2 sensor is in the header after the primary cat.

More exhaust flow causes richer conditions?

For example....JoeBoxer just installed his Motiv Pipes. He contacted me with his logs and his afr went from consistent 12.6-12.7 to pegging the the factory wideband at the lower threshold of 12.17:1. When you remove a CAT you are freeing up exhaust flow and you will see richer conditions cause im not speaking of the factory ecu making fuel adjustments and just tell you what any installed wideband displays. The CAT is an emissions based utility that also has a secondary function is causing fuel to burn off within the element. Of you im sure you have heard many people complain that once they removed their CAT some are bothered by a fuel smell in their car whether it be this car or any other car on the market. This is exactly why.

[FA20Club.com]

Originally Posted by lbroskee

what dyno do you use? my friend is getting 160WHP with just exhaust

I use a Mustang for all R&D. I only use a dynojet for marketing purposes

[FA20Club.com]

Originally Posted by Sportsguy83

I understand you. If I were you, I would get the exhaust and a drop in filter. The Tune IS expensive. IMHO (and anyone can feel free to disagree with me), I just wouldn't get an intake with no tune.



Remember that this platform is new, and we are all learning on the fly here. There are TONS of offerings for frontpipes, and each will be designed differently. I can definitely see where a particular brand of frontpipe caused that condition, but I wouldn't bet my money all frontpipes cause it. (Just for clarification, I am SURE what FA20 is saying is true, there are some frontpipe designs that cause this rich condition, just saying not all should do it).

Do your research on reputable companies and go with them. FA20 has been shown to be extremely transparent, and standup guys for their products. (And one more for the record, I am not their customer, I am just an outsider looking in).

Ill try to sum it up as best possible...

CATLESS Front Pipe=Tune Recommended W/ Higher gains than CATTED
CATTED Pipe=Tune Optional W/ Less gains than CATLESS

This is based on a bone stock car. Any further mods than these i would recommend you invest in a tune either way.

[JoeBoxer]

Originally Posted by FA20Club.com

For example....JoeBoxer just installed his Motiv Pipes. He contacted me with his logs and his afr went from consistent 12.6-12.7 to pegging the the factory wideband at the lower threshold of 12.17:1. When you remove a CAT you are freeing up exhaust flow and you will see richer conditions cause im not speaking of the factory ecu making fuel adjustments and just tell you what any installed wideband displays. The CAT is an emissions based utility that also has a secondary function is causing fuel to burn off within the element. Of you im sure you have heard many people complain that once they removed their CAT some are bothered by a fuel smell in their car whether it be this car or any other car on the market. This is exactly why.

I also did the Overpipe and catback about the same time which probably had some effect on it, the catless front pipe has been on the car a long time but when we added the overpipe, catback, and Perrin intake tube it really threw it out of whack.

Best i can say is if you are making lots of changes to flow whether intake or exhaust it's best to get a tune to make sure it's safe.

[FA20Club.com]

I would agree. I was mistaken on your mod steps its hard to keep up with you sometimes

[TyperRspec789]

Originally Posted by JoeBoxer

I also did the Overpipe and catback about the same time which probably had some effect on it, the catless front pipe has been on the car a long time but when we added the overpipe, catback, and Perrin intake tube it really threw it out of whack.

Best i can say is if you are making lots of changes to flow whether intake or exhaust it's best to get a tune to make sure it's safe.

Perrin intake tube would make more sense as the main contributing factor for the richer AFR. I need a reputable source for this information.

I used to tune R/C car engines and was a mechanical engineering major in college, nothing in my background/intuition would say a higher flowing exhaust or secondary non-O2-sensored cat delete would cause a richer AFR. The only thing I can imagine affecting AFR is a mod prior to the intake manifold- ex. Perrin intake tube.

Call me an ass, but my curiosity is triggered with this thread.

[FA20Club.com]

More testing in a few to see which item the culprit is. Im going to test the car completely stock with zero mods and again with the intake with no tuning. That should conclude testing for now until after the track day. ill post dyno sheets when im done.

[mike2100]

Step 1: develop modifications
Step 2: test modifications
Step 3: determine price
Step 4: advertise
Step 5: profit

[FA20Club.com]

got delayed with some work. pulling onto the dyno now