Paddle-Shifters

[Buggy51]

Originally Posted by MR-uezga

I've driven a BMW with paddle shifters and found it to be a bit odd and pointless. I'd much rather drive the "quick and precise shifts with a short-throw" kind-of-car, than to drive with paddle shifters that take away from the driving experience. It's just more enjoyable IMO.

...but to each their own!

No, I respect that, just I never really had the opportunity to learn to drive manual. No one in my family really has a beater that I can just borrow and learn (friends that do have a manual are over two hours away -_- and I don't like the idea of destroying their stuff as well), and I'm from the SF bay area and my mother doesn't exactly have fond memories of driving stick around the city.

So barring my inexperience (I do want to learn how to drive, but currently some time constraints don't allow me), I'd still like to have an enjoyable car to drive even with these weird paddle-like objects. Also, I sometimes encounter stop and go traffic and that seems less than enjoyable. I'm not going to question which item is better (I honestly can't say), but wouldn't it be great if they develop an interesting automatic (hope that's not an oxymoron) as well?

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by 82mm 4g63

Didn't they recently say the automatic will be a basic, no frills transmission with a torque converter? I don't expect comparable performance between the a/t and m/t, sadly.

That is not sad, that is the way it is suppose to be.

[Buggy51]

Originally Posted by 82mm 4g63

Didn't they recently say the automatic will be a basic, no frills transmission with a torque converter? I don't expect comparable performance between the a/t and m/t, sadly.

Mmm in the truthaboutcars article, from what the engineer is quoted saying, "No DSG or anything of that kind" and the rest of it seems showered in hyperbole and speculation from the interviewer. So... mmm... no idea. I was just curious to see how a basic transmission compares with the Lexus IS transmission.

As I quote from madfast, "what you basically need to know about the IS-F is that they took the 8 speed from the LS460 and beefed it up. They could have went the dual clutch or automated single clutch route, but it would probably have been too expensive. instead they decided to stick with the torque converter auto and re-engineered it for sportiness. at the time, it was one of, if not THE best automatic with the fastest shifts ever seen on an auto." and whatever bits of marketing blam I read from other internet sites, I was wondering if there was a similar idea placed. The engineering for a 8 speed is already in place, and its technically not a DSG. So... I dunno, I was hoping someone with more info can enlighten us.

[82mm 4g63]

Ah, well I'll stay optimistic. I was really hoping for a mildly impressive a/t.

[Buggy51]

Originally Posted by 82mm 4g63

Ah, well I'll stay optimistic. I was really hoping for a mildly impressive a/t.

Well, as I can, erm, liberally interpret the latest interview of Tetsuya Toda's statement, in which he states that he stands by proud that there is no DSG or anything like that. Can you say that you can't have a good automatic still (relative to other auto's... lets not stray into manual :P)? If its engineered to be simple but effective, would it work in a sporty manner? I dunno, I'm trying to be optimistic as well. I'm using the IS-F as a reference point (LFA's transmission is obviously out of the question), but I mean, even the Camry has a 6spd automatic transmission.

I'm looking at this link here: http://www.autoblog.com/2011/08/23/2...-drive-review/ and well, he claims that it shifts "pretty quick" but I suppose its all relative ~_~:

Video here of him using it: http://video.aol.com/aolvideo/aol-au.../1124603438001

And referring to this link: http://www.autoguide.com/manufacture...ideo-1594.html we have this quote:

"Perhaps most surprising, however, are paddle shifters and when the transmission is popped into the “S” sport mode, it will even rev-match on the down shift."

... ... well... the FR-S can't be worse right? ... ... *knocks on wood*

[MF_DEUCE]

Originally Posted by Buggy51

No, I respect that, just I never really had the opportunity to learn to drive manual. No one in my family really has a beater that I can just borrow and learn (friends that do have a manual are over two hours away -_- and I don't like the idea of destroying their stuff as well), and I'm from the SF bay area and my mother doesn't exactly have fond memories of driving stick around the city.

So barring my inexperience (I do want to learn how to drive, but currently some time constraints don't allow me), I'd still like to have an enjoyable car to drive even with these weird paddle-like objects. Also, I sometimes encounter stop and go traffic and that seems less than enjoyable. I'm not going to question which item is better (I honestly can't say), but wouldn't it be great if they develop an interesting automatic (hope that's not an oxymoron) as well?

Those are a series of unfortunate obstacles in your way of learning to drive manual. I had a small encounter such as this, but when you do happen to learn stick it will be a little frustrating on the stop n go streets, especially in SF (never been there) like you said. Try to make some friends with M/T and have them go over the basics if you're really interested.

P.S. - learn on a long-straight, and secluded road if you can. It takes pressure and obstacles away for easier learning.

[Want.FR-S]

Originally Posted by MR-uezga

Those are a series of unfortunate obstacles in your way of learning to drive manual. I had a small encounter such as this, but when you do happen to learn stick it will be a little frustrating on the stop n go streets, especially in SF (never been there) like you said. Try to make some friends with M/T and have them go over the basics if you're really interested.

P.S. - learn on a long-straight, and secluded road if you can. It takes pressure and obstacles away for easier learning.

I am not going to say your method is no good. I think it is wise to learn the basic on an open space with no car around. However, once you know the basic and you want to practice the start up (first gear clutch release is always the hardest.), I found that stop-n-go traffic is perfect for you to practice this skill. Here are my reasoning of why:

1. you get to practice start almost continuously always in first gear. That gives you tons of opportunity to find that sweet spot for clutch release point. You can keep practicing that until you get that feeling of where is the point to release the clutch. Once you found it, you can even start moving the car, although very slow, without even stepping on gas.
2. you are under pressure from behind so you concentrate it more on finding that spot.
3. do not step on gas too much otherwise you could hit the car in the front. Again, if you can find the sweet spot to release the clutch without gas, you really do not need to gas it (or maybe just a little bit).

One problem in SF area: hills. This will make things more difficult. I would suggest you to try this on a flat road first.

I remember when I was learning the manual by myself and stuck on a highway bridge with stop-n-go traffic, after I get off the highway, I have no problem to start and shift the cars. Just my 2 cents.

[82mm 4g63]

Originally Posted by MR-uezga

Those are a series of unfortunate obstacles in your way of learning to drive manual. I had a small encounter such as this, but when you do happen to learn stick it will be a little frustrating on the stop n go streets, especially in SF (never been there) like you said. Try to make some friends with M/T and have them go over the basics if you're really interested.

P.S. - learn on a long-straight, and secluded road if you can. It takes pressure and obstacles away for easier learning.

Yeah, I learned how to drive a manual at a mall parking lot at around midnight. You usually have a nice large loop for simulated straight runs, and plenty of turns to go up and down isles. Not to mention practicing parking in reverse. That was kinda tricky. Takes a few tries. Just look out for light posts. lol

[madfast]

Originally Posted by Buggy51

Hmm... though I'm not sure how the companies manage their transmission, but wouldn't it make sense to pull information that you had on your prototype/more advanced models and place it into the upcoming gen? The research is done for the v8, but I suppose its easier said than done to convert an 8 speed to 6.

yes the engineering IS done. and its probably easy to implement in the 6 speed, especially since aisin makes both transmissions. the problem is probably cost. the IS-F is a 60k car. the FT will be <25k. for the IS-F there is no manual tranny. the auto HAD to be good. for the FT the auto isnt the main tranny and so they dont have to make it "special". but that's not to say that just because it doesnt shift in 0.1 sec that its a bad tranny. it can still be sporty. it can still rev match downshifts. it can still not auto upshift at redline. it can still have full torque converter lockup in gears 2 to 6. it can still be sporty...

[madfast]

RX-8 6 speed auto manual mode. it shifts pretty damn quick for a "regular" automatic. this is the tranny that is supposedly going in the FT as well (Aisin TB-65SN):

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this is the 370Z's 7 speed auto. very, very fast shifts.

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and here's the IS-F

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[Giccin]

Originally Posted by Buggy51

Probably not the most popular topic to talk about (and I might be releasing a can of worms or worse...), but I still am interested in the paddle-shifters that Toyota/Subaru will employ. I really don't want to bring up the topic of manual vs. automatic (in fact, isn't it great that there's choice?), so we can hopefully avoid that and just stick to the topic (Ha!).

From what we know (based in the United States), we have this press release by Scion: http://pressroom.toyota.com/releases...-auto-show.htm

"The flat-four can mate with either a six-speed manual or a six-speed automatic transmission. The manual offers quick and precise shifts with a short-throw, while the automatic transmission features aggressive, sporty shifts that are initiated by steering-wheel-mounted paddle shifters. Power is distributed effectively via a limited-slip differential. "

So for certain that the automatic transmission will have paddle shifters; however, they are highly unlikely to be semi-automatic, if the interview with Tetsuya Tada holds true.

"The FT-86 has about half of the computing power that is dragged around in a modern day car. The preferred shifter is a stick. An automatic is optional. The slushbox is nothing fancy. 'No DSG or anything of that kind,' says Tada, and is proud. Sure, the automatic has a computer, but the shift points cannot be changed – at least not at the flip of a switch in the dashboard. Computers want to keep you on the straight and narrow, but some FT-86 owners want that car to go sideways. If you need nannies, go down to the children’s hospital."

The only problem with most of the quoted paragraph is that well... there's a bit of hyperbole thrown in the interview with the interviewer's interpretation, but most likely he's correct.

Currently, I do not recall any information regarding Subaru's version but I wouldn't be surprised that they offer similar transmissions.

Now the discussion/question that I have with regards to the automatic transmission with the Paddle-Shifter is how well it will perform in comparison to other previously-made Paddle-Shifters by Toyota and Subaru. Will they use similar parts from their previous line-up and how do these parts compare? I admit that I haven't ever driven a car with paddle-shifters so I'd like to have some insight from others that have.

From the current Toyota cars that do offer paddle-shifters straight from the factory, we now know that the 2012 Camry SE will feature paddle-shifters: "The SE’s sporty front seats provide thicker side bolsters, and the exclusive three-spoke leather-wrapped steering wheel offers paddle-shift control for the six-speed automatic transmission." Do you think the Lexus-IS series' paddle-shifters/automatic transmission would be implemented? How do they work?

I must confess I do not have much knowledge of the history of Toyota's and Subaru's products but I do want to learn. Any information provided/discussed would be welcome!

All in short. Buy GT5. Get the Logitech Wheel with the clutch and 6 speed. Huzzah! You've learned how to drive a stick (kinda) and you didn't crash into any buildings, people or objects. lol

[Buggy51]

To madfast Wow, all the cars are pretty impressive (I don't know about you, but on some other forums, they make it sound as if the response is as fast as molasses dripping) for what they are. Maybe my reflexes aren't lightning fast but... ... ... dare I ask... would those paddles be that bad? >_>

To MR-uezga, Want.FR-S, and 82mm 4g63, I'll take your advice into consideration. I'll try to see if my schedule and my friend's won't collide (but well... ... we'll see lol) and if we both have time. Only problem being distance ~_~; and well work/school (meh who needs that).

And Giccin, this may sound blasphemous but... >_> I never really enjoyed Gran Turismo lol. Maybe its more fun with the wheel and 6 speed clutch, but dunno... I just get bored with the game. >_> in fact, my PS3 hasn't quite impressed me... I only really enjoyed like 4-5 games (Valkyria Chronicles, MGS4, ... uh... ... ... Flower... ... I'll get back on the other two).

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

That is not sad, that is the way it is suppose to be.

I disagree. This isn't 1996, this is 2011-12 where automatics have come a long way.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by Buggy51

To madfast Wow, all the cars are pretty impressive (I don't know about you, but on some other forums, they make it sound as if the response is as fast as molasses dripping) for what they are. Maybe my reflexes aren't lightning fast but... ... ... dare I ask... would those paddles be that bad? >_>

its anti-automatic bias. plain and simple.

i bet most people who dog automatics have never even driven a proper sporty automatic. they use the paddles on their brother's friend's grilfriend's honda fit sport and they somehow come to the conclusion that all paddle shift automatics are like that.

however, dont get me wrong, there ARE differences. just looking at the 3 videos i posted, you can clearly see that the RX-8 has the slowest shifts and is the least responsive. however you must understand the auto has NOTHING done to it to make it shift faster, etc. on the other hand i purposely chose the 370Z for the second vid because that automatic is made very sporty from the factory. it uses a conventional torque converter, so its nothing exotic, but they tuned it to shift in an advertised 0.5 sec. it also has partial to full torque converter lockup in gears 2 to 7. and lastly, the IS-F vid is to show you the full potential of a torque converter automatic. 0.1 sec shifts.

so the point is that automatics CAN be as sporty as the IS-F, but most wont go there. too expensive, etc. the 370Z 7 speed however is a very, very attainable goal. and the RX-8 is just acceptable, but even at that level, you can see with your own eyes its no molasses shifting tranny. it's "fast enough" for what it is...