So before there was a BRZ, what was the equivalent?

[Justin.b]

Originally Posted by brewksy

The LFA is a technical marvel and despite being overpriced, it sure wins votes for being a great driver's car.

The LFA is not a technical marvel. It delivers about 85% of the current supercar performance for 150% of the price.

Supercar buyers vote with their wallets, and very few voted for the LFA. Toyota had to pressure their dealership owners to buy the things.

They came up with some ridiculous lease scheme for the LFA because they were convinced there would be an immediate Ferrari-like used market for them where the cars would be selling for double the original selling price. So you couldn't even buy one, you had to lease it. If I remember right, the lease payments were all up front and came out to almost the full price of the car (or some other very large number).

The LFA is a great car, and I'd certainly want one in my driveway. It's just an even better example of how badly Toyota stomps on their own ****s when trying to market a performance automobile. In spite of that, the FT86 seems to be a success. Let's hope this opens the door to more good things from Toyota.

-Justin

[brewksy]

Originally Posted by Justin.b

The LFA is not a technical marvel. It delivers about 85% of the current supercar performance for 150% of the price.

I already said it was overpriced - but it is a technical marvel, but not in the sense you are saying. It will never compare to most supercars out there because it uses carbon fiber extensively and uses a lot of new engineering techniques in its construction - both add significant portions to its price. Toyota wasn't expecting to sell these like GTRs. However, take price out of the equation and look at it from an engineering perspective - it absolutely blows away anything Subaru ever made. At its core, the LFA construction process will lead to cheaper carbon fiber construction methods, more unique ways to use carbon fiber, and possibly lead to engineering better sports cars in the future.

What about COG? What about RWD balance? Throttle response? Most reviews are pretty confident that the LFA was top notch in these areas. Funny that these are now being lauded onto the FRS/BRZ and yet that guy says that Toyota is somehow completely inept in these areas? If anything, Subaru's focus on lowering COG fell directly in line with the FRS/BRZ philosophy and the arrangement made sense to capitalize on Toyota's experience in RWD architecture.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Justin.b

The MRS was a single generation run lasting only a few years, same for the last Celica.

I'm not talking about performance necessarily - mainly sales.

And on the sales and performance front, the LFA is fail. Toyota takes so damn long to make a new car that the supercar bar moved twice while they were weaving their carbon fiber. They built the LFA to kick the F430s ass. Unfortunately by the time it came out it was sniffing the tailpipes of the 458 for almost double the price.

I'm not denying that Toyota HAS made some sports cars through the years, I'm just saying that their last successful sport cars were designed over 20 years ago.

-Justin

first off, i appreciate that this has stayed relatively civil for an ft86 club "debate." i think thats worth mentioning.

evo uk said the lfa was "the best supercar japan has ever made" when comparing it directly to the 599gto and unlike the 458, it doesnt randomly catch fire.

in the last 20 years toyota has developed two generations of celicas (successful or not, thats debatable), mr2 spyder (again debatable), isf, lfa and frs. what company has had more effort in the sports car realm over the last 20 years? maybe mazda but i doubt they met the sales volume of toyota.

[Justin.b]

BMW (M3, M5, Z3, Z4, M Roadster, M Coupe....)
Mercedes (SLK, SLS, SLR, AMG stuff)
Nissan (Z, GTR, SE-R)
Mazda (Miata , RX8, Mazdaspeed Protege, Mazdaspeed 3)
Dodge / Chrysler (Crossfire, SRT-4, Challenger, Chrysler 300C)
Chevy (Camaro, Corvette)
Ford (Ford GT, 100 flavors of hot Mustangs, Focus ST, Fiesta ST)
Hell, even two dead brands Have had more real sports cars in the 2000's than Toyota (Saturn Sky, Pontiac Solstice)

I don't consider a lot of those to be sports cars, obviously. A lot of them are just warmed-over family sedans. But that's my point about Toyota. In the absence of a real sports car they haven't even tried to offer a 'hot' version of anything else on their lots.

I think they've missed a trick with that. I think if they had a nice TRD Yaris and tried to sell it on handling (doesn't take much to make a light car handle - some 205 summer rubber on alloys and light suspension upgrades) it would have done well. With some marketing behind it, they certainly could have stolen some of the wind out of the 2/Fiesta's sails.

I do hope that the FT86 is a bit of a turning point for Toyota. Hopefully we see more drivers' cars from them in the next few years.

-Justin

[brewksy]

Originally Posted by Justin.b

BMW (M3, M5, Z3, Z4, M Roadster, M Coupe....)
Mercedes (SLK, SLS, SLR, AMG stuff)
Nissan (Z, GTR, SE-R)
Mazda (Miata , RX8, Mazdaspeed Protege, Mazdaspeed 3)
Dodge / Chrysler (Crossfire, SRT-4, Challenger, Chrysler 300C)
Chevy (Camaro, Corvette)
Ford (Ford GT, 100 flavors of hot Mustangs, Focus ST, Fiesta ST)
Hell, even two dead brands Have had more real sports cars in the 2000's than Toyota (Saturn Sky, Pontiac Solstice)

I don't consider a lot of those to be sports cars, obviously. A lot of them are just warmed-over family sedans. But that's my point about Toyota. In the absence of a real sports car they haven't even tried to offer a 'hot' version of anything else on their lots.

I think they've missed a trick with that. I think if they had a nice TRD Yaris and tried to sell it on handling (doesn't take much to make a light car handle - some 205 summer rubber on alloys and light suspension upgrades) it would have done well. With some marketing behind it, they certainly could have stolen some of the wind out of the 2/Fiesta's sails.

I do hope that the FT86 is a bit of a turning point for Toyota. Hopefully we see more drivers' cars from them in the next few years.

-Justin

I agree - Toyota does not typically tart up their base models with performance tidbits as much as other brands. When it comes to stage upgrades, aero packages, or other performance add-ons, Toyota hasn't been the most forthcoming.

But many of those models would not be considered sportscars (protege?) and they're quite a different take on performance - adding parts to a people-hauler, or creating a sporty vehicle from scratch. Justin, your argument here is worthy and I'll give you that Toyota is not as practiced when it comes to adding performance to existing models. But I still contend that Toyota does far better at developing purist sportscars based on their historical track record.

[FreshFRS]

Originally Posted by Justin.b

The MRS was a single generation run lasting only a few years, same for the last Celica.

I'm not talking about performance necessarily - mainly sales.

And on the sales and performance front, the LFA is fail. Toyota takes so damn long to make a new car that the supercar bar moved twice while they were weaving their carbon fiber. They built the LFA to kick the F430s ass. Unfortunately by the time it came out it was sniffing the tailpipes of the 458 for almost double the price.

I'm not denying that Toyota HAS made some sports cars through the years, I'm just saying that their last successful sport cars were designed over 20 years ago.

-Justin

I'm gunna disagree on performance, the LFA with nurburgring package (a rollcage and stiffer dampers, slight aero enhancements + RE070 street tires) happens to be faster on the the 'Ring than the 458 by about 16 seconds. the base car on S001 UHP tires is 5 seconds slower. considering the Italia was tested with optional P-zero corsa (Basically a street legal R-compound) tires i think on normal tires it would be way closer. it also with the "nur package" it passed the Z06 vette and ACR viper ('09) (not ACR '10 or ZR1 mind you) you can't really say its a fail performance wise. it is mighty expensive though and the Italia is gorgeous not gunna lie.

however historically the 86/FRS/BRZ equivalent would be the 85-87 corolla GTS

[Jaylyons1]

Originally Posted by FreshFRS

I'm gunna disagree on performance, the LFA with nurburgring package (a rollcage and stiffer dampers, slight aero enhancements + RE070 street tires) happens to be faster on the the 'Ring than the 458 by about 16 seconds. the base car on S001 UHP tires is 5 seconds slower. considering the Italia was tested with optional P-zero corsa (Basically a street legal R-compound) tires i think on normal tires it would be way closer. it also with the "nur package" it passed the Z06 vette and ACR viper ('09) (not ACR '10 or ZR1 mind you) you can't really say its a fail performance wise. it is mighty expensive though and the Italia is gorgeous not gunna lie.

however historically the 86/FRS/BRZ equivalent would be the 85-87 corolla GTS

The LFA is just stupid expensive though. Pay that much money and at the end of the day, you're driving a Lexus. Id rather own a 458 Italia and use the extra money I saved to buy a ZR1 and still pocket $30k.

[FreshFRS]

Originally Posted by Jaylyons1

The LFA is just stupid expensive though. Pay that much money and at the end of the day, you're driving a Lexus. Id rather own a 458 Italia and use the extra money I saved to buy a ZR1 and still pocket $30k.

i know what you are saying haha ZR1 and spend the extra giving it 1500whp

[go2brz]

To Fantoni:

that guy was.

That is pure bull. You said they had no perfromance car experience and I said they did and had won the WRC titles three times. I did not say that it was more or less than Toyota, simply stated a fact that you took the wrong way. Now you say that Subaru never made a sports car. Again you are wrong. They made a great sports touring car from 92-97 called the SVX. I have personally seen it post better autocross times than WRX's, BMW M3's, BMW M coupes, AMG Mercedes SLK's and many others. It was listed in every major auto magazine in the late 90's as one of the best used sport car purchases that could be made. Even the two door RS2.5 (non-turbo) could not be touched on an autocross track by any stock Toyota.

Track days and autocrossing is what any decent real sports car should be good at these days. All I can do is ask again, as you continue to ignore the questions: What Toyota cars are listed in the SCCA records in the last two decades of winning Solo or Autocross titles? You get slim pickings. I a company cannot make a car that all these Toyota fans could turn into a great weekend racer, then are they really good sports cars?

Yes, I believe that Toyota has not yet shown they are capable making a decent weekend racer with an engineering culture than can make a care pure to it's intent. The Supra did not handle good enough (too heavy), and the last Celica was a joke at sports car events. The MR2 was a neat little car and I liked it, but it still could not beat it's competition much in any racing events.

And yes, Subaru needed Toyota to produce this car in sustainable numbers and to maximize their engine output. Thank you Toyota, especially for the excellent body design work. But the design of the basic car platform layout is Subaru's and was only possible with a 4 cylinder boxer engine, which Toyota does not make. If my underwhelming support of Toyota's ability to make such a car on their own pissed you off, then I am sorry. But you want to give Toyota the lion's share of credit and claim that Subaru was dragged into making a car by a company that owns a relatively small percent of the mother company, Fuji Heavy Industries. (The same stock that GM owned for years) I find that a bit over the top. But again, you have the right to your opinion and I have not questioned that.

Now please quit making misleading statements about what I said and especially what my original intention was and I will be glad to let this whole subject go to the dust bin.

[go2brz]

For what it's worth, rx7 is probably a better car overall, a classic if you will (ESP the FD IMO) but interior wise, the design and fit and finish, the part you as a driver and owner see when your using the car, the 8 is leaps and bounds better, but that's my opinion, and the reason I got the 8 over 7. Factory turbo would be nice (let's just forget the fuel consumption for a second, its still a 13B :p ) but I will SC my MSP at one point. That's the plan anyway, new work on my car starts in a few months, I have a plan for it, nothing outrageous, but subtle stuff. It's the deposit I was going to use for the 86.
Don't get me wrong, my hart still melts when I see the 86, I love the idea of the car, that's why I'm still here, hoping and waiting, but for now it's not for me, it still doesn't offer more than my 8 does, styling aside as that's subjectional, so financially I wouldn't be better off selling the 8
But I'm sitting here, waiting for news I know it isn't too far off just biding my time and making plans that one day will come to pass :p

I agree that those are both excellent designs and great cars at performance events. I would gladly have owned either one of them. Unfortunately, I am not able to own all the cars I would really like to have experienced. But I would fell very happy with my choices if I was you also. I had a friend who owned an RX8 and I always looked forward to driving it.

[Razz]

Don't forget, Toyota is in the NASCAR circuit.

[go2brz]

I like your avatar. At first I was intent on waiting for that beautiful 4C. But the more I heard about pricing ($60,000 plus) the more I started wondering why I should wait til who know's when (Alfa has been promising to be sold here for 5 years now, even before Fiat took over Chrysler). I still am not sure when to expect it, as Chrysler is more intent on saving themselves (don't blame them). The Dodge Dart is basically the European award winning Alfa Guilietta with a Dodge body\interior and some small suspension changes. Great car for someone who wants that class of car with some real European handling blood in it.

I went for the BRZ and am very happy with it, especially for the cost. But I still expect an Alfa to reappear in my garage someday. (My last one was a 1990 Milano 3.0 Quadlafoglia that is still the best handling and most fun true 4 dour sedan that I have yet to drive.)

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by go2brz

To Fantoni:



That is pure bull. You said they had no perfromance car experience and I said they did and had won the WRC titles three times. I did not say that it was more or less than Toyota, simply stated a fact that you took the wrong way. Now you say that Subaru never made a sports car. Again you are wrong. They made a great sports touring car from 92-97 called the SVX. I have personally seen it post better autocross times than WRX's, BMW M3's, BMW M coupes, AMG Mercedes SLK's and many others. It was listed in every major auto magazine in the late 90's as one of the best used sport car purchases that could be made. Even the two door RS2.5 (non-turbo) could not be touched on an autocross track by any stock Toyota.

Track days and autocrossing is what any decent real sports car should be good at these days. All I can do is ask again, as you continue to ignore the questions: What Toyota cars are listed in the SCCA records in the last two decades of winning Solo or Autocross titles? You get slim pickings. I a company cannot make a car that all these Toyota fans could turn into a great weekend racer, then are they really good sports cars?

Yes, I believe that Toyota has not yet shown they are capable making a decent weekend racer with an engineering culture than can make a care pure to it's intent. The Supra did not handle good enough (too heavy), and the last Celica was a joke at sports car events. The MR2 was a neat little car and I liked it, but it still could not beat it's competition much in any racing events.

And yes, Subaru needed Toyota to produce this car in sustainable numbers and to maximize their engine output. Thank you Toyota, especially for the excellent body design work. But the design of the basic car platform layout is Subaru's and was only possible with a 4 cylinder boxer engine, which Toyota does not make. If my underwhelming support of Toyota's ability to make such a car on their own pissed you off, then I am sorry. But you want to give Toyota the lion's share of credit and claim that Subaru was dragged into making a car by a company that owns a relatively small percent of the mother company, Fuji Heavy Industries. (The same stock that GM owned for years) I find that a bit over the top. But again, you have the right to your opinion and I have not questioned that.

Now please quit making misleading statements about what I said and especially what my original intention was and I will be glad to let this whole subject go to the dust bin.

why would you bring up the wrc titles of subaru in an argument that subaru knows how to build a sports car when toyota doesnt? you said toyota was a failure and at least subaru has had success in wrc. well guess what, toyota had more success.

classing cars for races is very difficult. anybody with any experience will tell you that many cars get advantages because of the way they are classed and not about what is the better sports car.

you keep talking about "facts." are you ready for some facts?

you say the supra was too heavy at just over 3400 pounds. why is the svx a great sports at over 3500 pounds?

you say the supra cant handle. it only pulls .96-.98g on the skidpad. why do you think the svx will outhandle it when i will only generate .85g on a skidpad?

for 27k you get a 220hp supra. for 31-36k you get a 228hp svx. for 39.5k you get a turbo supra.

please tell me how the svx is somehow an amazing sports car but the supra is not.

its not that what you are saying is pissing me off. its just that it doesnt make any sense and you repeatedly put your foot in your mouth.

[chulooz]

The past is the past... the sad thing is Japan's largest brand has had its head up its arse in the performance segment for over a decade. Rude for a brand to desert its enthusiasts like that, all they can cling onto are used cars.

lol at the skidpad = handling logic and strawman arguments.