Ford Hybrids Not Achieving EPA MPG Ratings: Report

[Gixxersixxerman]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

lol, diesel paraders. Stop getting brainwashed by Europeans.

A Prius will do 80mpg+ if you keep the speed down (on low speed limit roads some hypermilers are able to get 100mpg or more on a stock Prius). If you get 46mpg on the highway, you're driving over the speed limit for sure.

In Europe they do not regulate NOx emissions as tightly so diesels can easily get higher efficiency. If you let gasoline engines put out NOx the way diesels do they can gain 10% efficiency *easy*, and the engines cost much less to build. Diesel fuel has higher energy per unit volume anyways, so 70mpg is not the same as 70mpg on gasoline.

On a stock manual FRS you should be able to get 50mpg if you just roll along at 45-50mph, and the gearing isn't even that great. I'm pretty sure that's how fast those 70mpg diesels are going. You can't blast down the highway at 80mph like most people do and expect great fuel economy, that's not how it works.

A 2007 dodge ram 2500 with a diesel, mine, gets 24-27 mpg bone stock at exactly 70 on the highway.. Please show me a full size gas powered truck returning the same... This is real world driving.. Not the EPA estimate of the newer trucks with the cylinder disengage stuff

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by Gixxersixxerman

A 2007 dodge ram 2500 with a diesel, mine, gets 24-27 mpg bone stock at exactly 70 on the highway.. Please show me a full size gas powered truck returning the same... This is real world driving.. Not the EPA estimate of the newer trucks with the cylinder disengage stuff

Uh, I think the 5.4L V8 F250s get like 18mpg doing 70 or something? (I browsed a bunch of forums) That might sound a lot worse, but you have to remember that if you relax emissions requirements gas engines can pick up as much as 20% cruising fuel economy with zero physical modifications in some cases, and 1 gallon of diesel fuel "=" 1.1 gallons of gasoline.

[Gixxersixxerman]

My dads old f150 with the 5.4 and a exhuast intake and tune got 16.... But we live in the mountains.. So our fuel mileage is a bit worse.. I do know of a guy that drives a beetle that's diesel powered.. We rag him all the time.. But on his bio diesel conversion and mods he has don't he gets 85 mpg daily driven.. I don't know all his mods and stuff, but his exhaust really does smell like French fries lol

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by Gixxersixxerman

My dads old f150 with the 5.4 and a exhuast intake and tune got 16.... But we live in the mountains.. So our fuel mileage is a bit worse.. I do know of a guy that drives a beetle that's diesel powered.. We rag him all the time.. But on his bio diesel conversion and mods he has don't he gets 85 mpg daily driven.. I don't know all his mods and stuff, but his exhaust really does smell like French fries lol

I've yet to run into a converted diesel that burns veggie oil and smells like French Fries rofl, I am sure the day I do I will laugh out loud. Picking up free restaurant grease and filtering it is certainly a great way to reduce fuel cost to near 0!

Older cars can be real mileage champs. http://ecomodder.com/blog/20-yearold...l-economy-run/
He really doesn't have that many modifications, the giant front splitter probably doesn't actually do that much, the removed mirror and wheel covers probably were most of the gains. Of course this guy is not driving with constant load, but 118mpg is nothing to scoff at either way.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

I've yet to run into a converted diesel that burns veggie oil and smells like French Fries rofl, I am sure the day I do I will laugh out loud. Picking up free restaurant grease and filtering it is certainly a great way to reduce fuel cost to near 0!

Older cars can be real mileage champs. http://ecomodder.com/blog/20-yearold...l-economy-run/
He really doesn't have that many modifications, the giant front splitter probably doesn't actually do that much, the removed mirror and wheel covers probably were most of the gains. Of course this guy is not driving with constant load, but 118mpg is nothing to scoff at either way.

Honda's HF and VX models were pretty exceptional mileage cars. But they were designed to be lean burn from the ground up. Casualties of NOX requirements.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Honda's HF and VX models were pretty exceptional mileage cars. But they were designed to be lean burn from the ground up. Casualties of NOX requirements.

Heh, if it were easy to flash the ECU on these 1ZZs, mine would be running 1.25 lambda already. 70kPa vacuum on the highway (well, 31% calculated load), seriously what the f*** Toyota. Of course it would be reverted for the biannual smog check.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Heh, if it were easy to flash the ECU on these 1ZZs, mine would be running 1.25 lambda already. 70kPa vacuum on the highway, seriously what the f*** Toyota. Of course it would be reverted for the biannual smog check.

If money grew on trees, I can imagine you ceramic coating the combustion chamber, bumping compression to 15:1, an Atkinson cycle intake cam/VVT-i strategy, and maybe standalone sequential port water injection to keep your ultra-lean mix from melting your motor. Oh and a TVS blower with bypass and EM clutch.

But seriously, could you reduce blowing up a leaned out NA motor under load with straight up water injection? Similar to too much boost in a way.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by Dimman

If money grew on trees, I can imagine you ceramic coating the combustion chamber, bumping compression to 15:1, an Atkinson cycle intake cam/VVT-i strategy, and maybe standalone sequential port water injection to keep your ultra-lean mix from melting your motor. Oh and a TVS blower with bypass and EM clutch.

But seriously, could you reduce blowing up a leaned out NA motor under load with straight up water injection? Similar to too much boost in a way.

Nah peak temperature is only higher than stoich from 1.0-1.1 lambda. Think about it, more air, less fuel, temperature can't just keep going up right? At 1.2 lambda the peak temperature flame temperature is about the same as stoichiometric, and that's where you have the lowest CO/HC emissions. Most people who don't know what they're doing bump it to 1.1 lambda for fuel economy, which helps, but not that much. After 1.2 you start losing efficiency because the flame speed drops, but it still beats incurring higher pumping losses with less air and a richer mix, which is why Honda went up to 22:1 (that's like 1.5). At that point you need significant timing changes to compensate for the slower burn, which is too much of a hassle.

EDIT: Might I add, if they used lean burn instead of cooled EGR a Prius engine could get pretty close to ideal idling efficiency (minimum possible fuel consumption given any set of cams you want)

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Nah peak temperature is only higher than stoich from 1.0-1.1 lambda. Think about it, more air, less fuel, temperature can't just keep going up right? At 1.2 lambda the peak temperature flame temperature is about the same as stoichiometric, and that's where you have the lowest CO/HC emissions. Most people who don't know what they're doing bump it to 1.1 lambda for fuel economy, which helps, but not that much. After 1.2 you start losing efficiency because the flame speed drops, but it still beats incurring higher pumping losses with less air and a richer mix, which is why Honda went up to 22:1 (that's like 1.5). At that point you need significant timing changes to compensate for the slower burn, which is too much of a hassle.

The lean combustion stuff is not something I look into since I'm pretty much programmed from turbo experience to believe that anything less that 12.5:1 under load is instant motor death... My buddy runs like ~11.5:1 at peak boost on 94 octane (street map).

[RaceR]

You guys and girls/women might find this interesting.

http://www.rtugroup.com/revolutionar...iabatic-engine

This video does not say much. But its really good engine porn! :p
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVnM8z1nX4k"]RTU eFone - Super Motor - YouTube[/ame]

Here is some teaser stats:

5-cylinder Turbo 2.5 liter
Power: 598kW (814 HP)
Torque: 1.000+ Nm (dyno limit)
Radiatorless Water System
Exhaust Gas Temp. 351°C
No catalityc converter needed
1.850 rpm - 115km/h - 5.3l/100km (47.04 MPG)

[RaceR]

I had a VW Golf Bluemotion (diesel) in 2010 (company car). And I was able to reach about 64mpg average over some distance. Sometimes I saw better numbers, but that was based on the computer.
(Mostly highway speed of 50mph and some lower speeds roads)

I just checked some numbers on earlier records attempts where people have driven a whole tank of diesel. Almost 2500 km on one tank in a VW Passat. That would be quite close to 73 US MPG.
Some Norwegians drove a Ford Mondeo Diesel to get more than 71+US MPG on a tank and got near 2000km out on one tank. At the time they had the world record.

Not sure if anything simular have been done lately in Hybrids. But diesel cars are certainly capable to get some extreme MPG.

I believe the next VW Golf Bluemotion was said to get about 10% more MPG compared to the model I drove.

But in normal daily driving. Most numbers are worse. Especially when cold and the engine is not up in temperature.

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

I've yet to run into a converted diesel that burns veggie oil and smells like French Fries rofl, I am sure the day I do I will laugh out loud. Picking up free restaurant grease and filtering it is certainly a great way to reduce fuel cost to near 0!

I once had the pleasure of ridding in a two bus caravan that was supplied by the university. After about 20 minutes of staring at the rear of the bus in front of us and wondering what that strong smell was, I finally figured it out. Emblazoned upon the rear of the lead bus was a sign that said "Powered by Biodiesel."

So yes it does smell like french fries. I've heard similar comments for ethanol too.

Anyway, just browsing the EPA website for reported MPG numbers suggest the hybrid Fusion is overestimated but nothing solid. Out of 5 reported numbers for the 2013 hybrid Fusion the average MPG is 37. There's only two for the 2012 so not even worth mentioning. The numbers are all over the place for the few listed on Fuelly. 37 is close enough to 40 so it might just be that the huge MPG jump for the 2013 is exaggerated.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Gixxersixxerman

A 2007 dodge ram 2500 with a diesel, mine, gets 24-27 mpg bone stock at exactly 70 on the highway.. Please show me a full size gas powered truck returning the same... This is real world driving.. Not the EPA estimate of the newer trucks with the cylinder disengage stuff

Diesels get much better mileage than gasoline engines, this is not in dispute.
But 27mpg or even 24mpg sustained, real world, not going down a hill, without a continuous tailwind in a Dodge 2500 at 70mph? I doubt it...
At fuelly dot com, most are reporting between 14 and 17mpg for mileage in 2007 Ram Diesels: http://www.fuelly.com/car/dodge/ram%...iesel%20l6/all

There are two outliers above 20, one at 24 and another at 27.
The reported 24 is based on only two fills, so not exactly a reliable figure.
The 27mpg report is based on ONE fill, likely off by a huge margin. My bet is it's off on the high side...

I'll believe 27mpg at 70mph when I experience it myself!

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by ScionRacer

I read reports of VW diesel owners getting anywhere from 700-1000 on full tanks
Close to 70 mpg highway and automakers are still parading this "hybrid" technology.

Clickie here to see what Diesel Jetta owners are reporting.
http://www.fuelly.com/car/volkswagen...20l4/sedan/all
Median is 41 mpg. Very few reports above 50, above 53 look like outliers, no reports above 64mpg.

Compare with reported actual mileage for the Prius:
http://www.fuelly.com/car/toyota/prius/all
Median is 48mpg. Very few above 58mpg, max reported = 68.

This is what is actually happening in the real world.