So before there was a BRZ, what was the equivalent?

[go2brz]

I would just change one item. It is built by Subaru, and the design of the core attributes of the car are all subaru. Toyota gave the styling, and the direct injection/port injection technology and the ECU to allow 200HP and still be fuel efficient. Overall it is a Subaru. Just read the background on the car's metamorphis and development, and it is clear. This was a Subaru Skunk Works car that Toyota wanted badly and with their 20 percent stock ownership felt it was so necessary for their lineup that they were willing to give Subaru their proprietary engine control system to another car company (The FA20 is the NEW subaru engine of the future). Seems to me that Subaru won on this deal, as they could not afford to produce the car on their own, so gave up production cars to Toyota, for technology that would have been very expensive to do on their own as they are the only single car company (not owned by another conglomerate) with one line of cars. Even BMW has Mini now. This design is a major statement for Subaru. Toyota gets a sports car that they had no ability to envision on thier own. (As stated by the Chairman of Toyota).

I for one am very happy that Subaru got technology to lead them into the future simply by producing a car they wanted badly, but needed assistance to get the most out of the motor without a turbocharger (direct/port injection technology). Both companies benefited, but anyone who calls this car a Toyota is on the wrong end of the stick.

[dori.]

Originally Posted by go2brz

I would just change one item. It is built by Subaru, and the design of the core attributes of the car are all subaru. Toyota gave the styling, and the direct injection/port injection technology and the ECU to allow 200HP and still be fuel efficient. Overall it is a Subaru. Just read the background on the car's metamorphis and development, and it is clear. This was a Subaru Skunk Works car that Toyota wanted badly and with their 20 percent stock ownership felt it was so necessary for their lineup that they were willing to give Subaru their proprietary engine control system to another car company (The FA20 is the NEW subaru engine of the future). Seems to me that Subaru won on this deal, as they could not afford to produce the car on their own, so gave up production cars to Toyota, for technology that would have been very expensive to do on their own as they are the only single car company (not owned by another conglomerate) with one line of cars. Even BMW has Mini now. This design is a major statement for Subaru. Toyota gets a sports car that they had no ability to envision on thier own. (As stated by the Chairman of Toyota).

I for one am very happy that Subaru got technology to lead them into the future simply by producing a car they wanted badly, but needed assistance to get the most out of the motor without a turbocharger (direct/port injection technology). Both companies benefited, but anyone who calls this car a Toyota is on the wrong end of the stick.

[Deslock]

Originally Posted by go2brz

I would just change one item. It is built by Subaru, and the design of the core attributes of the car are all subaru. Toyota gave the styling, and the direct injection/port injection technology and the ECU to allow 200HP and still be fuel efficient. Overall it is a Subaru. Just read the background on the car's metamorphis and development, and it is clear. This was a Subaru Skunk Works car that Toyota wanted badly and with their 20 percent stock ownership felt it was so necessary for their lineup that they were willing to give Subaru their proprietary engine control system to another car company (The FA20 is the NEW subaru engine of the future). Seems to me that Subaru won on this deal, as they could not afford to produce the car on their own, so gave up production cars to Toyota, for technology that would have been very expensive to do on their own as they are the only single car company (not owned by another conglomerate) with one line of cars. Even BMW has Mini now. This design is a major statement for Subaru. Toyota gets a sports car that they had no ability to envision on thier own. (As stated by the Chairman of Toyota).

I for one am very happy that Subaru got technology to lead them into the future simply by producing a car they wanted badly, but needed assistance to get the most out of the motor without a turbocharger (direct/port injection technology). Both companies benefited, but anyone who calls this car a Toyota is on the wrong end of the stick.

I'm a Subaru guy, and as they did the engineering and manufacturing, I tend to think of the car as (more-or-less) two parts Subaru, one part Toyota.

But Toyota deserves credit for coming up with the idea, dragging (a very reluctant) Subaru into it, bankrolling, planning, and designing most of it, and providing the D4-S. From autoguide:

After studying what everyone else was doing, (seeing the use of turbochargers, all-wheel drive and high grip tires), Toyota decided to move in the opposite direction, instead opting to build a sports car that harkens back to the roots of machines like the AE86 – from which the GT86 gets its name. It occurred to Tada san that an ideal powerplant would be a boxer engine, due to its low center of gravity. Toyota had an historical precedent for the use of a boxer engine in the Sports 800, built from 1965 to 1969. Toyota also just so happened to have access to such engines through a recent purchase of shares in Subaru parent company Fuji Heavy Industries, and a shared project could help foster relations between the two rival automakers.

A proposal was penned, for a rear-drive, boxer powered sports car and presented to Subaru, which immediately axed it. Subaru executives had two major concerns says Tada san, the first being that a rear-drive machine doesn’t fit with Subaru’s all-wheel drive brand message. The second reservation, and one that speaks to Toyota’s newfound attitude of taking ownership of its beige-to-drive past, is the admission that Subaru didn’t think Toyota could build a sports car. And while harsh, it’s not entirely surprising, after all, the last sporty Toyota was a Celica GTS in 2006 and the last rear-drive Toyota car to roll off an assembly line (at least for US consumption) was in 2005.

The project was then suspended for six months but eventually the team involved at Toyota helped convince the powers that be at Subaru.

Additional interesting reading about early rumors (note the debate about 1.5L vs 2.0L):
http://www.7tune.com/toyotasubaru-li...ht-sports-car/

Originally Posted by dori.

LOL. Yeah but without off-topic posts, forums would be so boring.

[Justin.b]

I think it's the successor to the S13 240sx. Similar dimensions. Same weight. RWD w/irs. Great-handling. 2+2. I'm saying the S13 instead of the S14 because the S14 was less popular, more expensive, a bit heavier and a little bit softer. The last S14's fourteen years ago had a sticker price (with options) higher than the FR-S today.

240sx wasn't really noticeably slower than the FR-S. There was less hp, but a heckuvalot more area under the torque curve - and without any torque dip in the middle. Besides, people started dropping in the SR's in the mid-late 90's. That gave you over 200hp for ~$2500.

That the FR-S so closely matched the S13 is the reason I bought one. I had an SR-swapped S13 and it was awesome... but it was old. I was afraid to drive it because I didn't want to spend the time fixing it after. The FR-S gets me pretty close to the driving experience of the 240SX with a factory warranty. It was hard to pass that opportunity up.

-Justin

[dori.]

^I've said to other people before that I think this will end up being the new S-chassis and most agreed with me. And I agree with you.

[Justin.b]

I miss my S13. The guy I sold it to still has it today and it looks good and runs better than when I had it. I have first option on it if he sells it, but unless the nannies make me hate the FR-S I don't see a reason to change.

-Justin

[iLuveKetchup]

The BRZ is around the same dimensions as a 240? I remember them to be long cars. Not really what I call a small car.

[Justin.b]

Originally Posted by iLuveKetchup

The BRZ is around the same dimensions as a 240? I remember them to be long cars. Not really what I call a small car.

The FR-S is within 2" of an S14 in every dimension other than length, where the S14 is about 10" longer. I guess those overhangs were longer than I remember.

But the cars also match up in what is probably the most important measurement for a performance car - weight.

-Justin

[raul]

Originally Posted by Captain Insano

One could argue the designers had the Cayman in their cross hairs when they designed the BRZ.

There is no argument, because this is a fact. Toyota/Subaru was indeed benchmarking with a Cayman.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Justin.b

240sx wasn't really noticeably slower than the FR-S. There was less hp, but a heckuvalot more area under the torque curve - and without any torque dip in the middle.

I was curious about this and looked it up. The only near-stock KA24DE dynojet chart I could find had an exhaust, but regardless, under 5000 rpm, it made less torque than a stock FA20, except at the torque dip. Take a look:

KA24DE (w/3" exhaust)




Stock FA20:



Other than the dip, the FA20 looks like the *slightly torquier engine oddly enough.

[Justin.b]

A lot of good Japanese cars have had European targets.

Datsun 510 / BMW 2002
Datsun Z / E-Type Jag
Nissan GTR / Porsche 911 Turbo

I don't think I'd consider any of the Japanese cars the equivalent of their European targets.

-Justin

[Justin.b]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

I was curious about this and looked it up. The only near-stock KA24DE dynojet chart I could find had an exhaust, but regardless, under 5000 rpm, it made less torque than a stock FA20, except at the torque dip. Take a look:

Other than the dip, the FA20 looks like the *slightly torquier engine oddly enough.

Please, sir, step aside and let me spew nonsense.

Honestly, it's been a long time since I looked at anything KA-related. I swapped out that motor in ~2005. I guess with all the 'truck motor' talk on the forums I remember it as being torquier than it was.

-Justin

[raul]

Originally Posted by Justin.b

A lot of good Japanese cars have had European targets.

Datsun 510 / BMW 2002
Datsun Z / E-Type Jag
Nissan GTR / Porsche 911 Turbo

I don't think I'd consider any of the Japanese cars the equivalent of their European targets.

-Justin

That's a pretty good observation, lol. Seems to me that the Japanese believe in making dreams more accessible, which I can wholeheartedly support.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Justin.b

Please, sir, step aside and let me spew nonsense.

Honestly, it's been a long time since I looked at anything KA-related. I swapped out that motor in ~2005. I guess with all the 'truck motor' talk on the forums I remember it as being torquier than it was.

-Justin

Haha you could absolutely be right about it feeling torquier (perhaps throttle calibration or engine response). I actually intended that more as a question.

My guess is that the higher CR of the FA20 enables it to produce low end torque comparable to some larger-displacement engines like the KA24DE, which has a 0.4L displacement advantage, but only 9.5:1 CR.

Thumbs up for direct injection and technological progress!